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but i mean just the fact that a person

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is faithful

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or a person goes to church doesn't

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doesn't necessarily mean that they're

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there so if

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there's buried is anybody that's all

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[\h__\h] well we'll show you just said

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that

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who are religious aren't smart like

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they're dumb they're

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no no right and that's like three

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quarters of the united states still it's

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still 75 percent of the country if 25

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is unaffiliated but that's not what i

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said so prescribe the movie religious

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starts with the question how can

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otherwise intelligent people believe in

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a talking snake

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the question is how can you just wall i

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think all of your intelligence and i

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guess you're all

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religious i don't know how people can

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i i don't know how people can wall off a

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part of their mind and believe in

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something that's an

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obviously bronze age myth

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that's of course bill maher having a

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quasi debate

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on atheism with a panel that shall

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remained

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unnamed interesting to note that this

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dialogue has more or less been pushed to

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the side of the public forum

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you don't hear these kind of debates

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anymore

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and and i think part of the reason for

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that is as we've covered on this show

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when you have spirit cooking

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occulted rituals satanic rituals

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connected to virtually

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everybody in hollywood and certainly

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many

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high-ranking political or royal family

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kind of connected people

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well it's hard to keep a straight face

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about the evils

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of belief in the supernatural or as i

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would say

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extended consciousness realm then again

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i think the debate still has merit

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that's why i keep bringing it up and

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that's why i decided to connect with

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derek lambert of the very excellent myth

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vision podcast now i have to say that

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anyone who's familiar with that podcast

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or with the

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mythicist position that is kind of a

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scholarly apologetics approach to

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the idea that jesus was a myth well if

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you go down that path

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then you would expect somebody like

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derek to be more aligned with the

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bill maher sunday school atheism

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kind of thing and well he is

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but as we'll explore in this interview i

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think

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that's only half the equation i mean

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half the equation is bill maher's right

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like how do we wall off our mind

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but the other half of the equation is

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well let me play a clip

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so i look at science and i say the the

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pre-existing

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social engineering position would be i

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want you to be the same way that

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religion

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wants you to be afraid it wants you to

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feel guilty

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it wants you to be controllable that's

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what religion wants

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out of you because you're just more

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susceptible to what they're saying

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science wants the same thing science

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wants you to think

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that you are that biological robot that

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you know there is no really no meaning

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in the universe or

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if you want to believe sam harris kind

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of it's a social construct it's whatever

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we make

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well consider the alternative that you

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are

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somehow more that your consciousness

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is somehow more and don't go any further

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don't go don't start

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selling me god or anything like that

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just

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science is oh you can't be anything more

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i don't feel like that's the pressure

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of the guys that i'm researching on this

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i feel like what they're trying to do

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like when i read the believing brain by

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michael shermer and i listen to him

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explain

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what's going on why do we believe

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anything at all like what would be the

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evolutionary product for why someone

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would want to trust in things and

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and how does that help us survive why

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people believe weird things kind of

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thing

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like the mechanism that causes us to

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believe

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so i'm looking for a natural phenomena

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why

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starting with what

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i can test and what seems most plausible

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to me

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based on proving the nine times out of

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ten when i thought it was yahweh or god

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or

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it was some being that did it the

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earthquake the water floods

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diseases famines the way nature is

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consuming one another

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and just the destruction that i see

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constantly that happens in life

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i go well damn which makes better sense

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that a consciousness actually created

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this and that

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we constantly viciously run into these

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things or

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a natural world view and so that's why

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i'm considering looking into the natural

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world view

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and saying does this answer these

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questions

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of course the second half of the

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question that i just alluded to in that

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clip

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is even more interesting and i'd double

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down on the

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interesting interesting part with

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derek's last point

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and that is we want a natural

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explanation

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the only problem with that is we're

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living in a post-materialistic

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scientific world that demands we factor

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in consciousness

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at the most fundamental level which of

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course brings us to the conclusion

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that there is no out there to measure

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there is no naturalism other than maybe

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as a kind of

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consensus reality approximation of

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what's going on

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well if i've lost you already with too

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much philosophical [\h__\h]

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then this might not be the episode for

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you but

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if you're into stuff like how bart

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airman who is essentially an atheist has

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hoodwinked christians into buying all

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those books

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or how and why atheists still don't

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understand why an investigation of

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extended consciousness might be relevant

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to their position

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then stick around for my interview with

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a guy who's done some

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really good interviews with top-notch

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experts on the topic

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of mythicism in the origins of

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christianity

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which is a topic that i continue the

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further i dig into it

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i think is just super relevant to

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everything we've ever talked about

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here on skeptico stick around i hope you

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enjoy my interview with derek lambert

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from the myth vision podcast welcome to

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skeptica where we explore controversial

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science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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i'm your host alex sacaris and today we

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welcome derek

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lambert to skeptico derek is the creator

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and host of the myth vision podcast

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and if you're into religious history

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particularly alternative religious

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history or apologetics or stuff like

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that

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kind of a go-to show if you haven't

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heard about it already

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it's an interview-based show and as i

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was just chatting about with derek

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he's really landed especially lately

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some just

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heavy hitter interviews bart airman

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elaine pagels

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joe atwell bob price and ananda

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literally anyone who's everyone

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kind of thing so if you've been

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following along this show

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and i've gotten into this first century

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roman

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kind of history and to a lot of you i

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seem to not be able to get out of that

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and i don't want to apologize for that

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because i think it's

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super duper important and relevant to

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a lot of things that are happening today

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but i ran across

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derek's work i've been listening to a

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bunch of his interviews

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they're really fantastic so i wanted to

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have him on

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and kind of swap stories we have

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interviewed a lot of the same people

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at some point and i just want to kind of

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see if he can help

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guide me a little bit so derek welcome

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to skeptico thanks for joining me

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thank you for rolling out the red carpet

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absolutely uh yeah like i just said i

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mean i've been leaning on these

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interviews man

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you're you're you're knocking it out of

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the park lately

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i appreciate it yeah i um i don't know

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if i'll be able to help you

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i think i need help myself too uh

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there's there's just so many ideas out

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there

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and what i'm actually doing now is i'm

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trying to

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find out why consensus scholarship

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why academia thinks the way they do

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um you know we people like randomly will

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pop up on the internet they run across

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flat earth stuff for example they'll

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just run across the flat earth video and

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next thing you know

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they're going in these loops and all

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they know is the science that the flat

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earth guy is telling you but they really

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have never

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actually said huh i wonder what you know

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actual scientists have to say about this

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topic

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i've never delved into the complexity of

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the science behind these things

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i wonder what that is and i kind of came

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from

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the fringe and as i've been coming out

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of the fringe i'm like

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looking at the scholars and saying whoa

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what do they say what do they teach

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and why do they disagree with each other

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what are the issues

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so that's pretty much what i'm doing now

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is like

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you can use me analogous to a flat

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earther and uh

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call me what you want i'm i wasn't ever

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a flat earther but i make that analogous

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to say i used to just go with the fringe

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ideas and like if it sounded cool i went

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with it but now i'm actually considering

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what actual experts in the field are

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saying

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and wanting to see why they think that

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way and maybe why they disagree with

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some of the fringe ideas

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yeah there's a lot there and and we

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should go into the flat earth thing

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because i think it's super interesting

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but tell us a little bit more about

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yourself and your background uh

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how you got into this i was a young boy

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who had a i had a great family but an

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alcoholic father

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who struggled with uh addiction alcohol

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and

287
00:10:00,550 --> 00:09:58,000
there was that trauma there in my life

288
00:10:03,030 --> 00:10:00,560
you know you you feel kind of uh

289
00:10:04,069 --> 00:10:03,040
a little bit left alone in the world and

290
00:10:06,389 --> 00:10:04,079
someone introduced

291
00:10:07,590 --> 00:10:06,399
me because i went to a christian private

292
00:10:09,990 --> 00:10:07,600
middle school

293
00:10:11,670 --> 00:10:10,000
they introduced me to jesus and told me

294
00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:11,680
have you ever told a lot yeah well if

295
00:10:14,710 --> 00:10:13,040
you told one you told to and then they

296
00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:14,720
get you caught up in this guilty filling

297
00:10:17,990 --> 00:10:15,760
and then they're like hey

298
00:10:19,670 --> 00:10:18,000
we've got a remedy buy our medicine it's

299
00:10:20,790 --> 00:10:19,680
jesus and next thing you know i accepted

300
00:10:22,710 --> 00:10:20,800
him in my heart

301
00:10:24,550 --> 00:10:22,720
everyone like patted me on the back made

302
00:10:27,110 --> 00:10:24,560
me feel like a million bucks

303
00:10:28,310 --> 00:10:27,120
i became saved i was born again i can't

304
00:10:29,990 --> 00:10:28,320
tell you how many times i've been born

305
00:10:33,110 --> 00:10:30,000
again but anyway

306
00:10:35,190 --> 00:10:33,120
uh years of this going to

307
00:10:37,350 --> 00:10:35,200
this house church that was teaching

308
00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:37,360
speaking in tongues and prophesying and

309
00:10:41,110 --> 00:10:38,800
we had a woman pastor

310
00:10:42,790 --> 00:10:41,120
and the end is near i was having dreams

311
00:10:43,430 --> 00:10:42,800
of the rapture and the end of the world

312
00:10:46,470 --> 00:10:43,440
like

313
00:10:51,269 --> 00:10:46,480
just a lot of very intense

314
00:10:54,550 --> 00:10:51,279
modern dis uh dispensational

315
00:10:57,269 --> 00:10:54,560
non-denominational christianity and

316
00:10:58,069 --> 00:10:57,279
then i struggled with addiction girls

317
00:11:01,509 --> 00:10:58,079
and addiction

318
00:11:02,310 --> 00:11:01,519
played a huge part in my life so i'd go

319
00:11:03,829 --> 00:11:02,320
back and forth like

320
00:11:05,350 --> 00:11:03,839
let me get my right back i'll get my

321
00:11:07,110 --> 00:11:05,360
life together i'm going to go to jesus

322
00:11:09,269 --> 00:11:07,120
and get right and i got right and then

323
00:11:10,949 --> 00:11:09,279
boom i was so extreme i

324
00:11:12,470 --> 00:11:10,959
i'd go so deep into wanting to study

325
00:11:12,870 --> 00:11:12,480
that and get addicted and then i'd go

326
00:11:17,269 --> 00:11:12,880
back

327
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:17,279
kind of skip ahead

328
00:11:20,949 --> 00:11:19,360
i wanted to know more about the bible

329
00:11:21,670 --> 00:11:20,959
because this guy who was preaching at

330
00:11:23,509 --> 00:11:21,680
the church

331
00:11:25,030 --> 00:11:23,519
misquoted something he didn't have the

332
00:11:25,670 --> 00:11:25,040
bible in front of him but he misquoted

333
00:11:28,389 --> 00:11:25,680
it

334
00:11:29,190 --> 00:11:28,399
and i thought to myself hey dude i

335
00:11:31,430 --> 00:11:29,200
actually

336
00:11:33,430 --> 00:11:31,440
know what that text says and you just

337
00:11:35,350 --> 00:11:33,440
misquoted what that text says

338
00:11:36,790 --> 00:11:35,360
maybe i know more than this guy that's

339
00:11:38,310 --> 00:11:36,800
what i was thinking in my head

340
00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:38,320
so i went up to him and he's a pastor at

341
00:11:40,870 --> 00:11:39,519
the time and said how do i learn more

342
00:11:42,150 --> 00:11:40,880
about the bible

343
00:11:43,829 --> 00:11:42,160
he said why don't you go to carolina

344
00:11:44,310 --> 00:11:43,839
bible college you should go to college

345
00:11:46,949 --> 00:11:44,320
and

346
00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:46,959
you know learn more it's fundamentalist

347
00:11:50,870 --> 00:11:48,160
evangelical

348
00:11:52,470 --> 00:11:50,880
christian college but i went and i got

349
00:11:53,829 --> 00:11:52,480
my bachelor's degree in biblical studies

350
00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:53,839
and theology

351
00:11:57,509 --> 00:11:55,440
i felt like i learned more reading

352
00:12:00,310 --> 00:11:57,519
actual books than i did actually

353
00:12:02,069 --> 00:12:00,320
going to this college but either way i

354
00:12:03,269 --> 00:12:02,079
took it serious became a presbyterian

355
00:12:05,030 --> 00:12:03,279
calvinist

356
00:12:07,269 --> 00:12:05,040
okay at this time i'm serious about the

357
00:12:09,430 --> 00:12:07,279
book serious about church history

358
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:09,440
like that shouldn't matter if we're in

359
00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:10,560
2020

360
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:12,560
what's the church been doing all along i

361
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:14,320
need to get in the loop of figuring out

362
00:12:17,509 --> 00:12:15,680
what's been going on

363
00:12:19,190 --> 00:12:17,519
and i did i started learning the history

364
00:12:21,990 --> 00:12:19,200
and then at the end

365
00:12:23,430 --> 00:12:22,000
i took the bible so literal and serious

366
00:12:26,230 --> 00:12:23,440
jesus promised

367
00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:26,240
some of his disciples wouldn't die

368
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:27,040
before

369
00:12:34,629 --> 00:12:31,440
would repay each man according to their

370
00:12:36,069 --> 00:12:34,639
deeds in matthew chapter 16 verse 27-28

371
00:12:37,750 --> 00:12:36,079
so i found this group called full

372
00:12:40,790 --> 00:12:37,760
preterism

373
00:12:41,990 --> 00:12:40,800
the end is past the second coming of the

374
00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:42,000
lord already happened

375
00:12:45,110 --> 00:12:43,760
which fits into atwell's thesis but

376
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:45,120
anyway um

377
00:12:48,470 --> 00:12:46,639
i started to believe in that and

378
00:12:50,069 --> 00:12:48,480
excommunicated me from the presbyterian

379
00:12:53,350 --> 00:12:50,079
pca church

380
00:12:56,069 --> 00:12:53,360
and i ended up uh realizing the whole

381
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,079
church is wrong but me

382
00:12:59,910 --> 00:12:58,320
that's a bad spot to be in by the way

383
00:13:03,030 --> 00:12:59,920
but a good starting point

384
00:13:05,430 --> 00:13:03,040
a bad st a bad spot to end but a good

385
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:05,440
point to begin

386
00:13:10,230 --> 00:13:08,160
that's exactly right and it was

387
00:13:12,310 --> 00:13:10,240
arrogance on my part to think that i had

388
00:13:14,230 --> 00:13:12,320
all the answers though

389
00:13:15,509 --> 00:13:14,240
and i struggled again with addiction and

390
00:13:17,269 --> 00:13:15,519
i'm actually thankful

391
00:13:19,110 --> 00:13:17,279
that i went through all those trials

392
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:19,120
with addiction at the end it was heroin

393
00:13:22,470 --> 00:13:20,880
i was dying i was killing myself and we

394
00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:22,480
can get into that that's a whole nother

395
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:23,200
thing but

396
00:13:29,910 --> 00:13:26,320
regardless it really humbled me and

397
00:13:33,030 --> 00:13:29,920
um heroin kicked my ass literally

398
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:33,040
and when when that happened to me i

399
00:13:38,150 --> 00:13:34,800
realized i didn't have the answers

400
00:13:39,910 --> 00:13:38,160
like maybe why is my life not better by

401
00:13:40,710 --> 00:13:39,920
my beliefs my beliefs didn't make a

402
00:13:42,790 --> 00:13:40,720
difference about

403
00:13:44,790 --> 00:13:42,800
what i was doing at the time it just

404
00:13:46,949 --> 00:13:44,800
they had no solid impact

405
00:13:48,069 --> 00:13:46,959
and this uh atheist friend of mine

406
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:48,079
called me

407
00:13:50,949 --> 00:13:49,760
wanted to have a conversation she

408
00:13:51,670 --> 00:13:50,959
started to talk about comparative

409
00:13:53,110 --> 00:13:51,680
religion

410
00:13:54,710 --> 00:13:53,120
jesus looks like this other guy have you

411
00:13:57,350 --> 00:13:54,720
ever read the story of hercules have you

412
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:57,360
ever read these narratives and i'm like

413
00:14:01,990 --> 00:14:01,199
oh no i haven't and then i found out

414
00:14:03,590 --> 00:14:02,000
there's other books

415
00:14:05,189 --> 00:14:03,600
by other people with other cultures with

416
00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:05,199
other beliefs who claim that they have

417
00:14:08,629 --> 00:14:06,639
true gods that really

418
00:14:09,670 --> 00:14:08,639
did these miracles or even if they're

419
00:14:12,310 --> 00:14:09,680
not miracles

420
00:14:14,069 --> 00:14:12,320
supernatural things or their gods in

421
00:14:14,389 --> 00:14:14,079
control of lightning and thunder and

422
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:14,399
this

423
00:14:21,670 --> 00:14:18,320
and that and it really made me realize

424
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:21,680
what shell or rock have i been hiding

425
00:14:26,470 --> 00:14:22,079
under

426
00:14:29,670 --> 00:14:26,480
to think my arrogant you know

427
00:14:32,310 --> 00:14:29,680
lucky to live in america christian

428
00:14:33,189 --> 00:14:32,320
life was the truth and everyone else was

429
00:14:35,990 --> 00:14:33,199
wrong and i

430
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:36,000
i had the answer i said man maybe i need

431
00:14:38,790 --> 00:14:36,959
to stop

432
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:38,800
acting like i have answers and

433
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:41,120
investigate just consider

434
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:43,760
what all the critics are saying and go

435
00:14:46,710 --> 00:14:45,360
back and listen to the guys i used to

436
00:14:48,150 --> 00:14:46,720
skip when i'd listen to the christian

437
00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:48,160
debates when william lane craig would

438
00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:49,760
debate richard dawkins or debate these

439
00:14:52,870 --> 00:14:50,160
guys

440
00:14:53,829 --> 00:14:52,880
i'd skip the bad guy yeah listen you

441
00:14:55,990 --> 00:14:53,839
know what i'm saying

442
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:56,000
like let me listen to these guys and

443
00:15:01,110 --> 00:14:58,240
consider it

444
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:01,120
and i did and when i did i started

445
00:15:06,870 --> 00:15:03,760
coming away with a

446
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:06,880
better balanced perspective and realized

447
00:15:11,670 --> 00:15:09,920
oh my gosh what if this is the six wise

448
00:15:13,269 --> 00:15:11,680
men of hindustan

449
00:15:14,870 --> 00:15:13,279
everyone's going to the blind they're

450
00:15:16,069 --> 00:15:14,880
all blind men they all go to the

451
00:15:18,310 --> 00:15:16,079
elephant

452
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:18,320
and they're all trying to describe god

453
00:15:22,389 --> 00:15:19,120
the elephant

454
00:15:23,990 --> 00:15:22,399
oh look that's a pointy tusk uh god is

455
00:15:24,790 --> 00:15:24,000
very much like a spear and the other one

456
00:15:26,870 --> 00:15:24,800
comes and it's a

457
00:15:29,030 --> 00:15:26,880
ear and another one says it's a tail and

458
00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:29,040
they're all arguing at the end about

459
00:15:32,310 --> 00:15:31,040
the elephant and they're all saying

460
00:15:33,670 --> 00:15:32,320
they're right but

461
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:33,680
all of them though they're partly in the

462
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:35,360
right or all in the wrong

463
00:15:39,269 --> 00:15:36,800
about an elephant that they've never

464
00:15:41,829 --> 00:15:39,279
seen and so this is where i ended up

465
00:15:43,350 --> 00:15:41,839
going is well god's bigger he's in

466
00:15:46,389 --> 00:15:43,360
everything

467
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:46,399
he's in every culture he's showing

468
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:49,920
you know himself through these cultures

469
00:15:54,389 --> 00:15:52,480
then i started to get more critical and

470
00:15:57,030 --> 00:15:54,399
i said hold on

471
00:15:57,670 --> 00:15:57,040
is it possible this is where i'm at now

472
00:15:59,509 --> 00:15:57,680
and i

473
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:59,519
you want to poke at me poke at me if you

474
00:16:03,110 --> 00:16:01,199
have problems with where i'm at now i'm

475
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:03,120
willing to hear what you have to say

476
00:16:06,310 --> 00:16:04,720
i wonder if there's a natural

477
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:06,320
explanation

478
00:16:11,350 --> 00:16:09,440
to everything uh yeah so uh

479
00:16:12,550 --> 00:16:11,360
we'll definitely talk about that because

480
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:12,560
i spent a lot of time

481
00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:15,040
hundreds of shows on that but i don't

482
00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:17,199
want to clutter the interview with that

483
00:16:21,189 --> 00:16:20,240
um right your inner your your story

484
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:21,199
there is

485
00:16:26,230 --> 00:16:24,639
fantastic love it and you're so open and

486
00:16:28,629 --> 00:16:26,240
honest about it it's such a story that i

487
00:16:30,230 --> 00:16:28,639
think so many people can relate to

488
00:16:33,030 --> 00:16:30,240
in all sorts of different ways because i

489
00:16:33,670 --> 00:16:33,040
think addiction comes in many different

490
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:33,680
forms

491
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:37,279
and you obviously went hardcore on it

492
00:16:40,949 --> 00:16:39,600
you went hard in the paint as my buddy

493
00:16:42,470 --> 00:16:40,959
sam likes to say but

494
00:16:44,550 --> 00:16:42,480
you know other people do it in much more

495
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:44,560
subtle ways but they sti

496
00:16:48,230 --> 00:16:47,279
it still interferes with their life but

497
00:16:50,470 --> 00:16:48,240
you brought up

498
00:16:51,749 --> 00:16:50,480
you know what i thought we might do as a

499
00:16:54,629 --> 00:16:51,759
way to kind of

500
00:16:55,590 --> 00:16:54,639
launch into this in a way where i can

501
00:16:57,509 --> 00:16:55,600
maybe

502
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,519
clean something out of it learn some

503
00:17:02,790 --> 00:16:59,839
things that fill in my gaps

504
00:17:04,470 --> 00:17:02,800
is kind of go through some of the people

505
00:17:07,909 --> 00:17:04,480
like you mentioned joe atwell

506
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:07,919
joe is one of my go-to guys

507
00:17:11,029 --> 00:17:09,679
been on the show a bunch of times been

508
00:17:12,949 --> 00:17:11,039
on my show a bunch of times

509
00:17:16,230 --> 00:17:12,959
you've interviewed him a bunch of times

510
00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:16,240
yes and i love he's not just about

511
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:19,280
uh mythicism in the mythicist position

512
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:20,640
and we'll talk more about that when we

513
00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:22,480
talk about bart airman but

514
00:17:29,510 --> 00:17:26,000
uh but joe is such a cool

515
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:29,520
guy and i love the contrarian

516
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:33,120
and the guy who's able to be

517
00:17:39,110 --> 00:17:36,960
kind of this one-man stand-alone

518
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:39,120
iconoclast i don't care what everyone

519
00:17:41,590 --> 00:17:41,039
says i'm going to kind of go down this

520
00:17:43,350 --> 00:17:41,600
path

521
00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:43,360
and there's so many things about him

522
00:17:48,310 --> 00:17:44,840
that are

523
00:17:49,669 --> 00:17:48,320
irrefutable i don't buy into his whole

524
00:17:51,270 --> 00:17:49,679
thing i think it takes

525
00:17:52,870 --> 00:17:51,280
he takes it a little bit too far and i

526
00:17:55,190 --> 00:17:52,880
think it actually

527
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:55,200
weakens his position a little bit but i

528
00:17:59,110 --> 00:17:56,960
like i really love what you did

529
00:18:01,669 --> 00:17:59,120
with uh bob price you know where you did

530
00:18:04,630 --> 00:18:01,679
the interview and said hey

531
00:18:05,190 --> 00:18:04,640
you seem to be you seem to be warming up

532
00:18:07,590 --> 00:18:05,200
to

533
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:07,600
atwell's ideas a little bit and you were

534
00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:08,960
very critical

535
00:18:13,350 --> 00:18:11,840
uh so we're going to talk a lot if you

536
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:13,360
haven't noticed folks we're going to

537
00:18:17,909 --> 00:18:15,679
talk a lot of inside baseball here

538
00:18:19,590 --> 00:18:17,919
so it that's not going to let up you

539
00:18:21,830 --> 00:18:19,600
know we really can't stop

540
00:18:23,909 --> 00:18:21,840
and explain all this stuff it's a couple

541
00:18:27,029 --> 00:18:23,919
of guys talking inside baseball inside

542
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:27,039
baseball joe atwell what do you think

543
00:18:31,750 --> 00:18:30,400
so uh sorry everybody uh if you're not

544
00:18:33,750 --> 00:18:31,760
caught up to speed

545
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:33,760
um joe's a good friend of mine i talk to

546
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:35,200
joe all the time on the phone

547
00:18:38,710 --> 00:18:36,880
uh well i won't say all the time but

548
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,720
periodically i give him a phone call

549
00:18:42,870 --> 00:18:40,240
check in on him and everything we try to

550
00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:42,880
do a show from time to time i um

551
00:18:48,630 --> 00:18:45,600
i don't rule out possibilities here i'm

552
00:18:50,870 --> 00:18:48,640
with you on that sense of saying

553
00:18:52,150 --> 00:18:50,880
let me put it this way i saw the view

554
00:18:55,909 --> 00:18:52,160
and i said

555
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:55,919
whoa this fits right into full preterism

556
00:18:59,270 --> 00:18:56,240
because

557
00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:59,280
as my story tells you the end was the

558
00:19:01,990 --> 00:19:00,080
past

559
00:19:03,909 --> 00:19:02,000
and that jesus predicted it would happen

560
00:19:07,750 --> 00:19:03,919
in the first century

561
00:19:11,430 --> 00:19:07,760
it had to happen then joe connects that

562
00:19:13,669 --> 00:19:11,440
with titus he connects the end

563
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:13,679
with the roman emperor who brought the

564
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:14,960
destruction

565
00:19:18,950 --> 00:19:17,440
on jerusalem and says you know this

566
00:19:22,070 --> 00:19:18,960
prediction the son of man

567
00:19:23,270 --> 00:19:22,080
but important important distinction here

568
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:23,280
and i think this is going to come up

569
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:25,840
when we talk about airmen

570
00:19:29,750 --> 00:19:28,080
joe talks about that as a social

571
00:19:32,789 --> 00:19:29,760
engineering project

572
00:19:34,310 --> 00:19:32,799
because joe has he's done that deep dive

573
00:19:35,990 --> 00:19:34,320
which is i really what i think he

574
00:19:38,230 --> 00:19:36,000
appreciated about him and what i think

575
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:38,240
he brings this conversation

576
00:19:41,590 --> 00:19:40,160
that doesn't always work its way into

577
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:41,600
the traditional kind of myth

578
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:43,360
vision kind of thing i don't think

579
00:19:47,350 --> 00:19:45,120
you're a verse to it but

580
00:19:49,190 --> 00:19:47,360
it doesn't take front and center

581
00:19:50,710 --> 00:19:49,200
position as i think it should

582
00:19:53,029 --> 00:19:50,720
joe is the guy who's going to tell you

583
00:19:55,590 --> 00:19:53,039
gloria steinem was cia

584
00:19:56,230 --> 00:19:55,600
not just to be part of the women's

585
00:19:58,710 --> 00:19:56,240
movement

586
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:58,720
she got a freaking fellowship from the

587
00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:00,960
cia to go to school they had her as a

588
00:20:04,870 --> 00:20:02,880
kid in a dysfunctional family

589
00:20:07,110 --> 00:20:04,880
they engineered her all the way and put

590
00:20:08,070 --> 00:20:07,120
her in so social engineering is always

591
00:20:11,110 --> 00:20:08,080
in play

592
00:20:13,430 --> 00:20:11,120
and as we understand the romans who were

593
00:20:15,510 --> 00:20:13,440
all about social engineering who were

594
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:15,520
all about co-opting religion

595
00:20:19,830 --> 00:20:18,000
because it's a it's another tool you can

596
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:19,840
send a couple legions or you can just

597
00:20:23,669 --> 00:20:21,200
build a

598
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:23,679
you know a temple over there and hey

599
00:20:27,270 --> 00:20:25,200
that does almost as good

600
00:20:29,909 --> 00:20:27,280
save all those soldiers walking all that

601
00:20:31,350 --> 00:20:29,919
way joe is totally dialed into that he's

602
00:20:34,230 --> 00:20:31,360
totally dialed into that

603
00:20:34,870 --> 00:20:34,240
also in the you know the whole thing he

604
00:20:38,230 --> 00:20:34,880
did with

605
00:20:40,230 --> 00:20:38,240
the deadhead stuff and all that he

606
00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:40,240
he gets that in a way that i think a lot

607
00:20:44,310 --> 00:20:42,080
of people in this field don't

608
00:20:46,149 --> 00:20:44,320
and that i think is important so i'm

609
00:20:47,750 --> 00:20:46,159
with you on that but that's the flavor i

610
00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:47,760
get from joe

611
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:50,960
yeah joe joe goes into things i don't

612
00:20:55,750 --> 00:20:53,360
and i don't think i ever in particularly

613
00:20:58,870 --> 00:20:55,760
going to be focused on for example

614
00:21:00,870 --> 00:20:58,880
uh anti-vac stuff uh he gets into modern

615
00:21:02,630 --> 00:21:00,880
stuff the oligarchs that are in charge

616
00:21:04,310 --> 00:21:02,640
all that kind of stuff i don't actually

617
00:21:04,549 --> 00:21:04,320
get into that i'm looking at the history

618
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:04,559
of

619
00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:06,640
this particular first century stuff he

620
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:08,640
sees it relevant to today's context

621
00:21:11,190 --> 00:21:09,520
whereas

622
00:21:13,110 --> 00:21:11,200
i'm still trying to figure that stuff

623
00:21:14,789 --> 00:21:13,120
out back there right i don't really get

624
00:21:16,789 --> 00:21:14,799
into the stuff here and then now

625
00:21:18,470 --> 00:21:16,799
in terms of the different conspiracies

626
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:18,480
that might be going on

627
00:21:24,789 --> 00:21:22,159
for me joe's position ultimately

628
00:21:25,350 --> 00:21:24,799
you've got two options top down bottom

629
00:21:26,870 --> 00:21:25,360
up

630
00:21:28,870 --> 00:21:26,880
either the romans were involved in

631
00:21:31,830 --> 00:21:28,880
co-opting a position that was gonna

632
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:31,840
pacify rebels in some sense or even in

633
00:21:36,630 --> 00:21:33,440
his view as a dark humor

634
00:21:38,310 --> 00:21:36,640
mock uh the jews as a destruction and

635
00:21:40,710 --> 00:21:38,320
it's very anti-semitic

636
00:21:42,390 --> 00:21:40,720
and it's a mockery of the jews for their

637
00:21:44,310 --> 00:21:42,400
attempt to think they were gonna

638
00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:44,320
overthrow rome and rome's able to do the

639
00:21:47,270 --> 00:21:45,679
final laugh on them

640
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:47,280
with the construction of the gospels in

641
00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:48,960
the new testament or

642
00:21:53,029 --> 00:21:52,000
the bottom up and the bottom up is the

643
00:21:56,070 --> 00:21:53,039
idea that

644
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:56,080
these were jewish fringe movements

645
00:21:59,430 --> 00:21:58,159
within the i don't know if you can call

646
00:22:01,430 --> 00:21:59,440
them french but within the

647
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:01,440
jewish apocalyptic ideas that were going

648
00:22:05,830 --> 00:22:03,200
on in second temple judaism

649
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:05,840
and it arise through a hellenistic time

650
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:08,159
where now you have these diaspora jews

651
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:09,600
that are now making contact with

652
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:10,559
gentiles

653
00:22:14,070 --> 00:22:11,600
and they're bringing them into a

654
00:22:16,710 --> 00:22:14,080
movement and they're either

655
00:22:18,470 --> 00:22:16,720
ass kissing the romans or the romans are

656
00:22:19,990 --> 00:22:18,480
involved in some way and it depends on

657
00:22:20,470 --> 00:22:20,000
what scholar you go to some of the

658
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:20,480
actual

659
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:24,159
have said in history

660
00:22:27,830 --> 00:22:27,280
they think rome's involved others say it

661
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:27,840
looks

662
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:30,720
that way it could be or it's jews but

663
00:22:33,430 --> 00:22:31,600
kissing

664
00:22:35,510 --> 00:22:33,440
rome because they know they don't want

665
00:22:38,630 --> 00:22:35,520
any trouble so it's like

666
00:22:40,390 --> 00:22:38,640
i wrestle with these ideas and i

667
00:22:41,990 --> 00:22:40,400
enjoy like learning from these people

668
00:22:44,630 --> 00:22:42,000
about them yeah

669
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:44,640
so uh we'll dive into that maybe maybe

670
00:22:49,750 --> 00:22:46,559
later because i think it's really really

671
00:22:52,070 --> 00:22:49,760
joe put me on this trail of josephus

672
00:22:54,149 --> 00:22:52,080
and i found a little nugget there and i

673
00:22:56,230 --> 00:22:54,159
continued to bounce it off of

674
00:22:57,510 --> 00:22:56,240
all these religious scholars i talk to

675
00:22:59,590 --> 00:22:57,520
and i expect them to

676
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:59,600
kind of spit it back in my face with you

677
00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:00,960
idiot you haven't read this and you

678
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:02,080
haven't read that

679
00:23:05,510 --> 00:23:04,080
but they they haven't and i just talked

680
00:23:07,510 --> 00:23:05,520
to steve mason

681
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:07,520
i'm in an email conversation with steve

682
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:09,120
mason who was

683
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:10,799
obviously one of the experts world

684
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:12,960
experts on josephus and

685
00:23:17,430 --> 00:23:15,760
lame his pushback is extremely lame in

686
00:23:18,230 --> 00:23:17,440
my opinion you know they're all looking

687
00:23:22,149 --> 00:23:18,240
under the

688
00:23:23,990 --> 00:23:22,159
because it's nice and comfortable over

689
00:23:25,590 --> 00:23:24,000
here when we lost the keys over in the

690
00:23:28,390 --> 00:23:25,600
alley buddy so you know

691
00:23:29,750 --> 00:23:28,400
you can look over here all you want but

692
00:23:33,270 --> 00:23:29,760
that's a little bit too far

693
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:33,280
inside baseball let's skip from atwell

694
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:34,960
to bart airman because you did just

695
00:23:39,430 --> 00:23:37,440
publish an interview with airmen which

696
00:23:40,549 --> 00:23:39,440
you know is really great credit to you

697
00:23:44,549 --> 00:23:40,559
for for

698
00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:44,559
getting him but derek i thought you were

699
00:23:48,870 --> 00:23:45,760
a little bit soft

700
00:23:51,269 --> 00:23:48,880
on him i mean for one thing

701
00:23:52,710 --> 00:23:51,279
tell people who who bart airman is in

702
00:23:53,990 --> 00:23:52,720
case they don't know and what's your

703
00:23:56,070 --> 00:23:54,000
take on him

704
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:56,080
so bart airman is a textual critic of

705
00:24:00,310 --> 00:23:57,120
the new testament

706
00:24:03,029 --> 00:24:00,320
and for the longest time as a mythicist

707
00:24:04,789 --> 00:24:03,039
i was i'm not a mythicist anymore and we

708
00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:04,799
can discuss that too i can i can give

709
00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:05,120
you

710
00:24:08,710 --> 00:24:07,200
my insight on what has pushed me over

711
00:24:10,149 --> 00:24:08,720
the edge to leaning towards the

712
00:24:13,590 --> 00:24:10,159
historicist angle

713
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:13,600
um i this goes back i gotta say

714
00:24:17,350 --> 00:24:14,480
something i gotta push

715
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,360
you on this why i didn't push uh with dr

716
00:24:22,230 --> 00:24:19,200
airman because

717
00:24:23,590 --> 00:24:22,240
i always have the answer remember that i

718
00:24:25,909 --> 00:24:23,600
was always right

719
00:24:27,350 --> 00:24:25,919
and at this point i'm now wanting to

720
00:24:28,230 --> 00:24:27,360
know getting the best out of these

721
00:24:29,669 --> 00:24:28,240
scholars

722
00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:29,679
to allow them to come on and present

723
00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:31,679
their views so bart airman

724
00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:34,400
is a prestigious new testament scholar

725
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:36,080
that is well known in the academic

726
00:24:39,909 --> 00:24:37,919
circles on new testament studies

727
00:24:41,350 --> 00:24:39,919
the historical jesus all these different

728
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:41,360
things he writes on

729
00:24:44,549 --> 00:24:43,440
the failure of the apocalyptic jesus in

730
00:24:46,470 --> 00:24:44,559
the new testament

731
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:46,480
he talks about forgeries and he shows

732
00:24:49,110 --> 00:24:47,760
that people didn't who

733
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:49,120
say they wrote them didn't actually

734
00:24:53,430 --> 00:24:51,440
write them all that stuff but um

735
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:53,440
go ahead and tell me your criticisms and

736
00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:55,039
and then i'd like to give you my

737
00:24:59,269 --> 00:24:57,520
you know my personal response well my

738
00:25:01,190 --> 00:24:59,279
first pushback is

739
00:25:03,110 --> 00:25:01,200
like i get what you're saying on the

740
00:25:06,470 --> 00:25:03,120
mythicist thing

741
00:25:07,029 --> 00:25:06,480
but you know airmen does a lot of arm

742
00:25:09,430 --> 00:25:07,039
waving

743
00:25:11,350 --> 00:25:09,440
and kind of oh my god you're just stupid

744
00:25:14,310 --> 00:25:11,360
if you're a mythicist you know all this

745
00:25:16,789 --> 00:25:14,320
you know [\h__\h] i mean i i mean it's

746
00:25:18,470 --> 00:25:16,799
true on one level but on another level

747
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:18,480
like we're just talking about atwell

748
00:25:22,390 --> 00:25:20,159
and atwell might be considered a

749
00:25:23,830 --> 00:25:22,400
mythicist but if you really push at well

750
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:23,840
like i have in my interviews

751
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:26,080
he's like i don't give a [\h__\h] if you

752
00:25:29,110 --> 00:25:28,080
want bart airman's jesus to be at the

753
00:25:31,350 --> 00:25:29,120
center of your

754
00:25:33,029 --> 00:25:31,360
thing some puny little guy who's just

755
00:25:34,470 --> 00:25:33,039
one of a dozen guys who's out there

756
00:25:36,870 --> 00:25:34,480
talking in the desert

757
00:25:37,669 --> 00:25:36,880
it makes no difference to me doesn't

758
00:25:41,510 --> 00:25:37,679
change

759
00:25:43,510 --> 00:25:41,520
joe atwell's interpretation of that top

760
00:25:46,310 --> 00:25:43,520
down as you called it history

761
00:25:47,669 --> 00:25:46,320
so i think mythicist and historicist

762
00:25:50,870 --> 00:25:47,679
really are on the same side

763
00:25:52,870 --> 00:25:50,880
fighting the same fight uh if you really

764
00:25:53,750 --> 00:25:52,880
look at it and say okay was this guy a

765
00:25:55,750 --> 00:25:53,760
myth

766
00:25:57,830 --> 00:25:55,760
yes how are you defining that there was

767
00:26:00,310 --> 00:25:57,840
a guy that apologized or

768
00:26:01,269 --> 00:26:00,320
was he complete myth invented and then

769
00:26:03,110 --> 00:26:01,279
you himmerized

770
00:26:05,669 --> 00:26:03,120
it just depends on the angle but they're

771
00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:05,679
on the same side i i did not like

772
00:26:10,070 --> 00:26:08,240
um the way that airman approaches this

773
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:10,080
this is why if you watch that interview

774
00:26:14,070 --> 00:26:12,640
again i followed up trying to get more

775
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:14,080
out of him by the way that was a donor's

776
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:14,720
question

777
00:26:21,350 --> 00:26:18,240
episode

778
00:26:21,990 --> 00:26:21,360
was donors but either way um i said to

779
00:26:24,470 --> 00:26:22,000
him

780
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:24,480
yeah but wouldn't you at least not

781
00:26:27,350 --> 00:26:25,120
include

782
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:27,360
the scholars right because he's a

783
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:28,400
scholar guy

784
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:30,159
wouldn't you at least not throw bob in

785
00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:32,559
there and and uh carrier in this

786
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:35,760
as holocaust deniers like because i've

787
00:26:38,070 --> 00:26:36,240
heard

788
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,080
on record him saying something like myth

789
00:26:43,750 --> 00:26:40,320
the sister equivalent to holocaust

790
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:43,760
yeah so i'm like you know it's almost

791
00:26:45,750 --> 00:26:44,159
like

792
00:26:47,269 --> 00:26:45,760
you're slapping that on there wouldn't

793
00:26:48,710 --> 00:26:47,279
you take that away at least and say

794
00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:48,720
these guys are academic

795
00:26:52,149 --> 00:26:50,720
and he kind well i guess somewhat he

796
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:52,159
kind of responded like that

797
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:56,000
i didn't have time before we hit record

798
00:26:59,750 --> 00:26:58,080
show is ready to end and i'm not gonna

799
00:27:01,269 --> 00:26:59,760
nail him down i've read his books i know

800
00:27:02,789 --> 00:27:01,279
what he thinks about jesus i know why he

801
00:27:05,190 --> 00:27:02,799
thinks it but

802
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,200
i wish there was a not as dogmatic

803
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:07,840
approach to this and he was like look

804
00:27:11,110 --> 00:27:10,000
it's most plausible that there was a guy

805
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:11,120
okay i think

806
00:27:14,950 --> 00:27:13,360
mrs like he says i think methodists do

807
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:14,960
themselves a disservice

808
00:27:20,389 --> 00:27:18,000
but it's most possible there's a guy i i

809
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:20,399
you know i kind of not trying to be so

810
00:27:23,110 --> 00:27:21,440
hard on them but

811
00:27:24,389 --> 00:27:23,120
they really aren't seeing the picture

812
00:27:24,870 --> 00:27:24,399
that would be better than them going

813
00:27:27,669 --> 00:27:24,880
with

814
00:27:28,070 --> 00:27:27,679
the way he kind of just mocks the whole

815
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:28,080
thing

816
00:27:31,110 --> 00:27:29,760
it doesn't really help the conversation

817
00:27:32,870 --> 00:27:31,120
you see what i'm saying oh

818
00:27:35,909 --> 00:27:32,880
totally i see what you're saying and i'd

819
00:27:37,830 --> 00:27:35,919
kind of go one step further you know

820
00:27:39,269 --> 00:27:37,840
and that this kind of gets to your story

821
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:39,279
a little bit too

822
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:43,200
in that he's a wheaton college guy

823
00:27:49,350 --> 00:27:46,559
i mean airman is a wheaton college guy

824
00:27:51,750 --> 00:27:49,360
these are the the noah's ark still kind

825
00:27:54,470 --> 00:27:51,760
of people creation without compromise

826
00:27:54,789 --> 00:27:54,480
you know they're not all like that but

827
00:27:57,350 --> 00:27:54,799
they're

828
00:27:58,149 --> 00:27:57,360
certainly warm and open to that and and

829
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,159
he doesn't

830
00:28:02,070 --> 00:28:00,480
uh he's still friendly with the wheaton

831
00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:02,080
college kind of

832
00:28:06,789 --> 00:28:04,399
fundamentalist christian kind of thing

833
00:28:10,710 --> 00:28:06,799
not that he hasn't moved past that

834
00:28:14,230 --> 00:28:13,350
to me i don't feel like he's completely

835
00:28:17,269 --> 00:28:14,240
going

836
00:28:21,029 --> 00:28:17,279
through the unindoctrination

837
00:28:22,389 --> 00:28:21,039
process that is christianity

838
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:22,399
and i think you know when we were

839
00:28:25,990 --> 00:28:23,760
talking about when you were talking

840
00:28:28,870 --> 00:28:26,000
about your story

841
00:28:29,510 --> 00:28:28,880
that is that is a big part of it i think

842
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:29,520
and that

843
00:28:33,590 --> 00:28:32,240
leads us back to atwell in a way and it

844
00:28:35,909 --> 00:28:33,600
also leads us to

845
00:28:37,830 --> 00:28:35,919
another guy jeffrey dardy what's his one

846
00:28:40,870 --> 00:28:37,840
sermon that i love the title of

847
00:28:41,750 --> 00:28:40,880
is he jesus was an mk ultra murder

848
00:28:45,350 --> 00:28:41,760
victim

849
00:28:48,470 --> 00:28:45,360
merry christmas oh gosh

850
00:28:51,110 --> 00:28:48,480
that to me that's where we that's

851
00:28:51,750 --> 00:28:51,120
that's unindoctrination to me to me

852
00:28:54,950 --> 00:28:51,760
that's

853
00:28:56,710 --> 00:28:54,960
full frontal unindoctrination you've

854
00:28:59,590 --> 00:28:56,720
been mind controlled

855
00:29:00,789 --> 00:28:59,600
this is my position rightly embrace the

856
00:29:03,190 --> 00:29:00,799
mind control

857
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:03,200
fully embrace how hard it is to

858
00:29:06,070 --> 00:29:04,320
unindoctrinate

859
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:06,080
i was brought up in the greek orthodox

860
00:29:09,750 --> 00:29:07,760
church which is kind of a different

861
00:29:11,510 --> 00:29:09,760
a different tradition you know than the

862
00:29:13,110 --> 00:29:11,520
than the protestant but

863
00:29:14,549 --> 00:29:13,120
enough the same but i got to tell you

864
00:29:17,350 --> 00:29:14,559
man

865
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:17,360
how long it took me to how long it took

866
00:29:22,149 --> 00:29:18,720
me to where i could say

867
00:29:25,269 --> 00:29:22,159
i'm not a christian and not have kind of

868
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:25,279
a lump in my throat kind of oh my g kind

869
00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:26,640
of thing

870
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:28,880
a lot of time and i guess i don't get

871
00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:29,919
that from bart

872
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:33,039
airman from dr airman i don't get

873
00:29:40,310 --> 00:29:37,520
that he's fully come to grips with

874
00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:40,320
how he got mine [\h__\h] into going to

875
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:41,919
wheaton college

876
00:29:45,590 --> 00:29:44,240
and believing all that stuff and then

877
00:29:48,389 --> 00:29:45,600
still believing it

878
00:29:50,070 --> 00:29:48,399
at an age when most people would go well

879
00:29:52,149 --> 00:29:50,080
no it ain't true in that way i don't

880
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:52,159
know what it is but it ain't that

881
00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:53,600
what do you think about it you say he

882
00:30:00,950 --> 00:29:56,080
believes that he still believes that is

883
00:30:02,870 --> 00:30:00,960
in that vein of fairyland [\h__\h]

884
00:30:05,990 --> 00:30:02,880
you know if you think about uh what

885
00:30:08,630 --> 00:30:06,000
happens when you're a little kid

886
00:30:10,470 --> 00:30:08,640
and you go to church or in your case you

887
00:30:12,630 --> 00:30:10,480
know you have kind of a traumatic

888
00:30:14,789 --> 00:30:12,640
family thing and my family thing wasn't

889
00:30:16,710 --> 00:30:14,799
so great either

890
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,720
and i'll tell you man i'll tell you

891
00:30:21,510 --> 00:30:18,480
myself going to church

892
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:21,520
and sitting in those hard wooden pews of

893
00:30:25,350 --> 00:30:23,279
the greek orthodox church

894
00:30:27,269 --> 00:30:25,360
and seeing those old men walk through

895
00:30:29,350 --> 00:30:27,279
there with those icons and

896
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:29,360
blowing the smoke and then you go up

897
00:30:33,190 --> 00:30:30,480
there and you kiss that

898
00:30:34,310 --> 00:30:33,200
[\h__\h] priest's hand and he gives you a

899
00:30:36,149 --> 00:30:34,320
little piece of bread

900
00:30:38,470 --> 00:30:36,159
and he gives you the bread that you eat

901
00:30:39,190 --> 00:30:38,480
on and that big cross hanging up there

902
00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:39,200
with that

903
00:30:46,630 --> 00:30:42,960
carved wooden sculpture of that guy

904
00:30:49,110 --> 00:30:46,640
who died who was killed and the guilt

905
00:30:49,750 --> 00:30:49,120
and this and the fear and the whole

906
00:30:52,789 --> 00:30:49,760
thing

907
00:30:55,269 --> 00:30:52,799
and program that in at a young age

908
00:30:57,750 --> 00:30:55,279
and we can all go oh well you know no

909
00:30:59,029 --> 00:30:57,760
man that is some deep conditioning

910
00:31:02,310 --> 00:30:59,039
and i think if we don't really

911
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:02,320
acknowledge that on a level of a kind of

912
00:31:05,990 --> 00:31:04,399
if you're not willing to kind of go okay

913
00:31:08,950 --> 00:31:06,000
let's really deconstruct that

914
00:31:10,789 --> 00:31:08,960
find out what that means then you're

915
00:31:13,509 --> 00:31:10,799
going to wind up just talking about

916
00:31:15,269 --> 00:31:13,519
textual analysis like bart airman does

917
00:31:18,470 --> 00:31:15,279
because it's safe and it's friendly and

918
00:31:20,789 --> 00:31:18,480
it's like we're all okay anyway

919
00:31:21,509 --> 00:31:20,799
yeah so i think that in the vein of what

920
00:31:23,990 --> 00:31:21,519
you're just

921
00:31:25,190 --> 00:31:24,000
describing here the mk ultra thing i

922
00:31:27,350 --> 00:31:25,200
don't know about

923
00:31:28,230 --> 00:31:27,360
and personally i don't even need to in

924
00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:28,240
my opinion

925
00:31:31,750 --> 00:31:30,000
in order to realize that what we're

926
00:31:34,070 --> 00:31:31,760
believing in is

927
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:34,080
fiction we've been we've been told a

928
00:31:36,950 --> 00:31:36,240
narrative every religion has these same

929
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:36,960
things

930
00:31:42,950 --> 00:31:40,399
so airman tiptoes this really kind line

931
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:42,960
in many ways and he isn't pushing back

932
00:31:44,630 --> 00:31:43,600
hard

933
00:31:46,149 --> 00:31:44,640
on those people who've been

934
00:31:47,750 --> 00:31:46,159
indoctrinated a lot of people been

935
00:31:49,750 --> 00:31:47,760
harmed by the church

936
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:49,760
a lot of people have been molested or

937
00:31:53,909 --> 00:31:50,799
abused or

938
00:31:55,590 --> 00:31:53,919
even killed or were killed or committed

939
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:55,600
suicide because of the beliefs in such

940
00:31:59,590 --> 00:31:56,320
things

941
00:32:00,389 --> 00:31:59,600
and so um he isn't necessarily pushing

942
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:00,399
hard

943
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:03,919
on the people that are still propagating

944
00:32:06,149 --> 00:32:05,360
these things that are causing harms for

945
00:32:09,750 --> 00:32:06,159
so many people

946
00:32:11,430 --> 00:32:09,760
whereas like bart or dr bob he's also

947
00:32:12,310 --> 00:32:11,440
kind of believers he is best friend as a

948
00:32:15,669 --> 00:32:12,320
christian

949
00:32:18,070 --> 00:32:15,679
the thing is i think that

950
00:32:19,110 --> 00:32:18,080
trying to engage that world he wouldn't

951
00:32:21,590 --> 00:32:19,120
do very well

952
00:32:23,269 --> 00:32:21,600
if he was doing that if he was bashing

953
00:32:25,190 --> 00:32:23,279
and going out hard and saying you guys

954
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:25,200
are all blind you have no clue

955
00:32:29,509 --> 00:32:27,360
and he did that boldly he wouldn't have

956
00:32:31,750 --> 00:32:29,519
any audience to really

957
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:31,760
engage with that in a sense or at least

958
00:32:35,190 --> 00:32:33,360
not in the academic world

959
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:35,200
because most people who go to this are

960
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,640
probably religious most

961
00:32:40,070 --> 00:32:38,480
i'm not going to say some aren't but if

962
00:32:41,269 --> 00:32:40,080
you were like raised an atheist you

963
00:32:42,549 --> 00:32:41,279
probably aren't going to take interest

964
00:32:43,590 --> 00:32:42,559
in textual criticism on the new

965
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,600
testament

966
00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:45,360
most likely you come from the background

967
00:32:50,630 --> 00:32:46,720
you and i come from

968
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:50,640
but as far as what i'm trying to do

969
00:32:54,470 --> 00:32:52,159
i'm trying to create a bridge for people

970
00:32:55,590 --> 00:32:54,480
to walk over i want people who are in

971
00:32:57,190 --> 00:32:55,600
the believer's side

972
00:32:59,590 --> 00:32:57,200
to listen to what i'm saying at the same

973
00:33:02,710 --> 00:32:59,600
time to tell them i was duped

974
00:33:03,110 --> 00:33:02,720
i believed this narrative of a story

975
00:33:06,070 --> 00:33:03,120
that

976
00:33:07,430 --> 00:33:06,080
really is irrelevant to me uh it's

977
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:07,440
relevant in the history look at what

978
00:33:11,110 --> 00:33:08,559
it's done it's it's

979
00:33:12,149 --> 00:33:11,120
impacted us but what i'm saying is i

980
00:33:15,110 --> 00:33:12,159
have freedom now

981
00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:15,120
i don't have this religion in a sky

982
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:16,720
daddy or a fairy tale

983
00:33:20,870 --> 00:33:19,279
over my head watching my every move

984
00:33:22,470 --> 00:33:20,880
wondering if i'm good or bad or feeling

985
00:33:23,669 --> 00:33:22,480
guilty if i do something or say

986
00:33:26,230 --> 00:33:23,679
something or think something

987
00:33:27,669 --> 00:33:26,240
no i don't have those boundaries anymore

988
00:33:29,350 --> 00:33:27,679
and i think it's important we free

989
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:29,360
people especially in the 21st century

990
00:33:33,830 --> 00:33:30,960
because religion

991
00:33:35,830 --> 00:33:33,840
is not it's not pushing us few into the

992
00:33:38,389 --> 00:33:35,840
future it's not pushing us in a better

993
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:38,399
place it's that freedom i believe in

994
00:33:40,470 --> 00:33:40,080
being able to explore areas that we

995
00:33:42,789 --> 00:33:40,480
weren't

996
00:33:44,470 --> 00:33:42,799
but i'm also very cautious you bring up

997
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:44,480
some of these ideas i'm not really sure

998
00:33:47,750 --> 00:33:45,600
of some of them

999
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:47,760
but i'm very cautious on going too far

1000
00:33:50,789 --> 00:33:49,120
and wondering if there's this hidden

1001
00:33:52,470 --> 00:33:50,799
agenda and the illuminati and you start

1002
00:33:54,789 --> 00:33:52,480
getting into these other things

1003
00:33:55,990 --> 00:33:54,799
that i need concrete evidence of i'm a

1004
00:33:57,909 --> 00:33:56,000
skeptic

1005
00:33:59,669 --> 00:33:57,919
rightfully so on biblical stuff and all

1006
00:34:01,350 --> 00:33:59,679
these things and like show me a god and

1007
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,360
i'll believe in one type stuff

1008
00:34:04,389 --> 00:34:03,120
but at the same time when it comes to

1009
00:34:07,590 --> 00:34:04,399
these

1010
00:34:10,389 --> 00:34:07,600
what people call conspiracy theories

1011
00:34:11,589 --> 00:34:10,399
i want to look at these things from the

1012
00:34:14,310 --> 00:34:11,599
skeptical angle and

1013
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:14,320
observe and consider is there really a

1014
00:34:18,310 --> 00:34:16,320
conspiracy with the vaccines

1015
00:34:19,990 --> 00:34:18,320
is there you know and i can go into like

1016
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,000
various veins you know of conversation

1017
00:34:23,990 --> 00:34:22,560
with us so i want to tiptoe i don't want

1018
00:34:24,790 --> 00:34:24,000
to go in because i've always just

1019
00:34:26,869 --> 00:34:24,800
believed what i've

1020
00:34:28,629 --> 00:34:26,879
been told if it sounds good or if it's

1021
00:34:30,470 --> 00:34:28,639
something that appeals to me

1022
00:34:31,909 --> 00:34:30,480
all of a sudden i'm believing it oh wow

1023
00:34:33,589 --> 00:34:31,919
god predestined i read a verse in the

1024
00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:33,599
bible with pre-destiny i believed it

1025
00:34:38,790 --> 00:34:37,119
but now we have this desire

1026
00:34:40,710 --> 00:34:38,800
since we've been duped and there's been

1027
00:34:42,629 --> 00:34:40,720
a hood over our head the whole time

1028
00:34:44,710 --> 00:34:42,639
to go off maybe too far on the other

1029
00:34:46,149 --> 00:34:44,720
side and say hey there's this

1030
00:34:47,829 --> 00:34:46,159
we need to go over here there's a secret

1031
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:47,839
conspiracy everyone's been planning and

1032
00:34:51,990 --> 00:34:49,040
tricking us

1033
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:52,000
i'm with you in that control of the

1034
00:34:55,270 --> 00:34:52,720
masses

1035
00:34:57,589 --> 00:34:55,280
used by religion is there i just need

1036
00:34:59,910 --> 00:34:57,599
more evidence if we start going beyond

1037
00:35:01,270 --> 00:34:59,920
to saying there's secret organizations

1038
00:35:02,550 --> 00:35:01,280
doing these secret things that are

1039
00:35:03,109 --> 00:35:02,560
particularly doing it i'm not saying

1040
00:35:06,950 --> 00:35:03,119
there aren't

1041
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:06,960
need good evidence so i'm very skeptical

1042
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:08,640
of the skeptics as well you see what i'm

1043
00:35:13,190 --> 00:35:10,079
saying

1044
00:35:16,470 --> 00:35:13,200
know that's

1045
00:35:19,589 --> 00:35:16,480
really why derek i've been so

1046
00:35:20,310 --> 00:35:19,599
interested in this first century roman

1047
00:35:22,150 --> 00:35:20,320
history

1048
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:22,160
because i think it it leaves all the

1049
00:35:27,910 --> 00:35:24,800
fingerprints that are harder for people

1050
00:35:28,630 --> 00:35:27,920
to see i actually think that more and

1051
00:35:31,510 --> 00:35:28,640
more people

1052
00:35:33,510 --> 00:35:31,520
are just open to the idea that this

1053
00:35:37,750 --> 00:35:33,520
parapolitical perspective

1054
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:37,760
what some people call conspiracy is just

1055
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:39,599
it's been revealed it's been obvious

1056
00:35:43,430 --> 00:35:41,680
like i continue to use the glorious

1057
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:43,440
dynamic example people get so tired of

1058
00:35:47,190 --> 00:35:44,880
it on this show

1059
00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:47,200
you can go right now if you want and you

1060
00:35:51,030 --> 00:35:48,960
could know everything you needed to know

1061
00:35:53,190 --> 00:35:51,040
about it but like i'm telling you anyone

1062
00:35:55,270 --> 00:35:53,200
can go look at it and in her own words

1063
00:35:57,349 --> 00:35:55,280
she says i work with the cia

1064
00:35:59,030 --> 00:35:57,359
but the point the point is and if you

1065
00:35:59,589 --> 00:35:59,040
don't know about it you should know

1066
00:36:01,190 --> 00:35:59,599
about it

1067
00:36:02,790 --> 00:36:01,200
really because it's an important part of

1068
00:36:05,910 --> 00:36:02,800
our history just like

1069
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:05,920
just like jfk assassination is an

1070
00:36:09,910 --> 00:36:07,440
important part of our history

1071
00:36:11,349 --> 00:36:09,920
it's 60 years old now there's 200 books

1072
00:36:11,990 --> 00:36:11,359
written you know a lot of people don't

1073
00:36:16,470 --> 00:36:12,000
even realize

1074
00:36:19,109 --> 00:36:16,480
that the second phony baloney

1075
00:36:21,430 --> 00:36:19,119
government panel beyond the the warren

1076
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:21,440
commission the second one that they sat

1077
00:36:26,150 --> 00:36:24,000
concluded that it was a conspiracy so

1078
00:36:28,069 --> 00:36:26,160
officially the government acknowledged

1079
00:36:30,390 --> 00:36:28,079
that it's a conspiracy there's something

1080
00:36:30,630 --> 00:36:30,400
going on i mean period well hold on hold

1081
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:30,640
on

1082
00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:34,480
to go there so finishing with the gloria

1083
00:36:39,510 --> 00:36:35,760
steinem thing

1084
00:36:41,829 --> 00:36:39,520
the question is not whether the cia

1085
00:36:42,790 --> 00:36:41,839
had their foot in the door in terms of

1086
00:36:45,510 --> 00:36:42,800
that it's

1087
00:36:47,589 --> 00:36:45,520
what the [\h__\h] are we living in a in a

1088
00:36:48,790 --> 00:36:47,599
society in a culture where we don't

1089
00:36:50,870 --> 00:36:48,800
think that should happen

1090
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:50,880
and we keep coming through that again

1091
00:36:55,109 --> 00:36:52,000
and again that

1092
00:36:57,270 --> 00:36:55,119
they want a play in

1093
00:36:59,109 --> 00:36:57,280
controlling culture and controlling the

1094
00:36:59,990 --> 00:36:59,119
way it goes i'm getting off target here

1095
00:37:03,030 --> 00:37:00,000
though i'm getting

1096
00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:03,040
digressing what you're trying to say is

1097
00:37:07,109 --> 00:37:03,760
that

1098
00:37:10,069 --> 00:37:07,119
all the way to

1099
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:10,079
contemporary times are playing the the

1100
00:37:14,390 --> 00:37:10,880
masses

1101
00:37:16,550 --> 00:37:14,400
using things like religion to control

1102
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:16,560
and try and keep everyone under control

1103
00:37:19,270 --> 00:37:18,320
or to their own advantage to make the

1104
00:37:21,829 --> 00:37:19,280
rich richer

1105
00:37:24,630 --> 00:37:21,839
the poor poorer and just keep using

1106
00:37:26,710 --> 00:37:24,640
humans kind of like slaves so to speak

1107
00:37:28,470 --> 00:37:26,720
agreed only that sounds a little bit too

1108
00:37:30,790 --> 00:37:28,480
conspiratorial for my

1109
00:37:32,790 --> 00:37:30,800
liking the way i put it is it from a

1110
00:37:34,069 --> 00:37:32,800
parapolitical standpoint well of course

1111
00:37:35,990 --> 00:37:34,079
you would do that

1112
00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:36,000
of course you know i'm a business guy i

1113
00:37:39,990 --> 00:37:37,680
come from a business background

1114
00:37:41,990 --> 00:37:40,000
when you want to when you want to win

1115
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:42,000
you kind of do whatever you can

1116
00:37:45,430 --> 00:37:43,440
within the rules but you're willing to

1117
00:37:47,910 --> 00:37:45,440
stretch the rules to win

1118
00:37:49,910 --> 00:37:47,920
the romans did this we have history

1119
00:37:51,109 --> 00:37:49,920
recording the romans doing this over and

1120
00:37:53,349 --> 00:37:51,119
over again they go into gall

1121
00:37:55,910 --> 00:37:53,359
and they say hey you know your gods are

1122
00:37:57,589 --> 00:37:55,920
a lot like our gods we can get along

1123
00:37:59,109 --> 00:37:57,599
and then they do the divide and conquer

1124
00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:59,119
the divide and rule thing you know

1125
00:38:02,390 --> 00:38:00,800
hey this group that group let us get in

1126
00:38:04,310 --> 00:38:02,400
the middle of that so they're playing

1127
00:38:06,150 --> 00:38:04,320
this thing over and over again

1128
00:38:08,710 --> 00:38:06,160
and now we run across the christian

1129
00:38:11,430 --> 00:38:08,720
thing and they're doing it again

1130
00:38:12,230 --> 00:38:11,440
and but yet we want to get sidetracked

1131
00:38:14,230 --> 00:38:12,240
into

1132
00:38:15,589 --> 00:38:14,240
bart airman you know talking about the

1133
00:38:17,349 --> 00:38:15,599
textual kind of

1134
00:38:19,109 --> 00:38:17,359
how about looking at the social

1135
00:38:21,430 --> 00:38:19,119
engineering part and the quote that that

1136
00:38:23,910 --> 00:38:21,440
i keep coming back to in josephus

1137
00:38:25,270 --> 00:38:23,920
and this quote has been brought up in

1138
00:38:27,190 --> 00:38:25,280
your show so i don't know if you know

1139
00:38:30,310 --> 00:38:27,200
about this or not but

1140
00:38:33,270 --> 00:38:30,320
josephus and war of the jews actually

1141
00:38:34,470 --> 00:38:33,280
kind of spills the beans when he goes

1142
00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:34,480
look these jews

1143
00:38:38,069 --> 00:38:36,560
of which of course he's one the reason

1144
00:38:40,870 --> 00:38:38,079
they were so upset

1145
00:38:41,190 --> 00:38:40,880
is because they thought the messiah they

1146
00:38:44,310 --> 00:38:41,200
had

1147
00:38:47,510 --> 00:38:44,320
would come

1148
00:38:50,150 --> 00:38:47,520
from the soil of judea

1149
00:38:50,790 --> 00:38:50,160
and you know what they just got it a

1150
00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:50,800
little bit

1151
00:38:57,190 --> 00:38:53,920
wrong because it turns out vespasian

1152
00:38:57,510 --> 00:38:57,200
was on the soil of judea when he was

1153
00:39:01,030 --> 00:38:57,520
made

1154
00:39:02,230 --> 00:39:01,040
emperor so he is the emperor you guys

1155
00:39:05,589 --> 00:39:02,240
can kind of

1156
00:39:06,950 --> 00:39:05,599
forget about your religion and give it

1157
00:39:09,430 --> 00:39:06,960
up for vespasian

1158
00:39:10,390 --> 00:39:09,440
he's our guy and that's why i went

1159
00:39:12,069 --> 00:39:10,400
through this

1160
00:39:14,069 --> 00:39:12,079
phony you know the whole this whole

1161
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:14,079
story is so manufactured so

1162
00:39:17,109 --> 00:39:15,839
to anyone who would listen to it in

1163
00:39:19,430 --> 00:39:17,119
modern times would go

1164
00:39:20,950 --> 00:39:19,440
he's completely making that [\h__\h] up he

1165
00:39:22,069 --> 00:39:20,960
suicide packed but he's the only

1166
00:39:24,870 --> 00:39:22,079
survivor you know

1167
00:39:25,990 --> 00:39:24,880
all that stuff but that that to me is

1168
00:39:27,910 --> 00:39:26,000
social engineering

1169
00:39:30,069 --> 00:39:27,920
there is no there's no other way to

1170
00:39:31,910 --> 00:39:30,079
interpret that yeah i've heard of it um

1171
00:39:33,349 --> 00:39:31,920
and one of the things that i think of

1172
00:39:35,190 --> 00:39:33,359
right now because i thought the whole

1173
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:35,200
joseph atwell position was

1174
00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:37,200
like solid rock and it was the only

1175
00:39:41,030 --> 00:39:38,640
position that i knew

1176
00:39:42,630 --> 00:39:41,040
uh the reason why i get barred airman's

1177
00:39:44,150 --> 00:39:42,640
like i said at the opening in this video

1178
00:39:46,310 --> 00:39:44,160
the reason why i entertain

1179
00:39:48,230 --> 00:39:46,320
various scholars from various fields is

1180
00:39:50,069 --> 00:39:48,240
there might be something i'm missing

1181
00:39:52,230 --> 00:39:50,079
like if i jump to the conclusion it's

1182
00:39:55,510 --> 00:39:52,240
it's like asking someone

1183
00:39:57,430 --> 00:39:55,520
uh is the earth round is it flat i mean

1184
00:39:59,829 --> 00:39:57,440
my perception makes it look like it's

1185
00:40:01,430 --> 00:39:59,839
flat if i go outside and i look i mean

1186
00:40:02,390 --> 00:40:01,440
sure there's hills sure there's

1187
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:02,400
mountains but

1188
00:40:05,990 --> 00:40:04,800
it's flat there's probably an ice layer

1189
00:40:07,430 --> 00:40:06,000
around the corner

1190
00:40:09,190 --> 00:40:07,440
we could do that all day long with these

1191
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:09,200
ideas and i say

1192
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:11,920
what do experts say and why we have to

1193
00:40:15,910 --> 00:40:12,560
assume

1194
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:15,920
everything is not trustworthy or worth

1195
00:40:19,109 --> 00:40:18,000
looking at because a lot of that context

1196
00:40:20,470 --> 00:40:19,119
can come to

1197
00:40:22,150 --> 00:40:20,480
support ideas of what we're trying to

1198
00:40:25,109 --> 00:40:22,160
consider so for example

1199
00:40:26,069 --> 00:40:25,119
if josephus is a jew and a lot of this

1200
00:40:28,710 --> 00:40:26,079
is probable

1201
00:40:30,309 --> 00:40:28,720
if josephus is a jew and he's using the

1202
00:40:32,230 --> 00:40:30,319
hebrew bible as a lot of his own

1203
00:40:32,950 --> 00:40:32,240
prophetic backing to support what he

1204
00:40:35,589 --> 00:40:32,960
does

1205
00:40:37,589 --> 00:40:35,599
he's hellenistic he's in the emperor's

1206
00:40:40,630 --> 00:40:37,599
house so to speak he's now adopted

1207
00:40:41,829 --> 00:40:40,640
he's got the flavian name why did he get

1208
00:40:43,589 --> 00:40:41,839
why did why do you suppose he got

1209
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:43,599
adopted

1210
00:40:47,910 --> 00:40:45,839
oh ass kissing probably for making

1211
00:40:49,190 --> 00:40:47,920
predictions about him for all we know

1212
00:40:51,750 --> 00:40:49,200
i don't think that gets i don't think

1213
00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:51,760
that gets you the villa with 200 of your

1214
00:40:55,270 --> 00:40:53,280
friends

1215
00:40:56,950 --> 00:40:55,280
oh i mean we can think about whatever

1216
00:40:58,630 --> 00:40:56,960
but we don't have solid evidence

1217
00:41:00,230 --> 00:40:58,640
for we don't have solid evidence either

1218
00:41:02,550 --> 00:41:00,240
way but what we have and what we

1219
00:41:04,950 --> 00:41:02,560
understand from a modern perspective

1220
00:41:06,150 --> 00:41:04,960
if you look at the copper scroll the

1221
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:06,160
copper scroll

1222
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:09,680
is a treasure map right it says

1223
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:13,520
2 000 pounds of silver five steps from

1224
00:41:18,069 --> 00:41:14,480
this

1225
00:41:21,430 --> 00:41:18,079
copy

1226
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:21,440
so if you're josephus and you're of this

1227
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:24,240
elite family which is really pro roman

1228
00:41:28,630 --> 00:41:25,440
family

1229
00:41:30,069 --> 00:41:28,640
what do you potentially have to trade

1230
00:41:32,950 --> 00:41:30,079
with josephus

1231
00:41:35,030 --> 00:41:32,960
to win the villa that he used to own and

1232
00:41:36,550 --> 00:41:35,040
the free trip except for 200 of his

1233
00:41:39,109 --> 00:41:36,560
friends

1234
00:41:40,790 --> 00:41:39,119
maybe you have knowledge of where the

1235
00:41:42,790 --> 00:41:40,800
[\h__\h] treasure is buried

1236
00:41:44,230 --> 00:41:42,800
because the other thing we forget is

1237
00:41:47,030 --> 00:41:44,240
that

1238
00:41:49,349 --> 00:41:47,040
it's if if you were in charge if turk

1239
00:41:52,390 --> 00:41:49,359
was in charge of defending

1240
00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:52,400
the treasure and you're sieged for 90

1241
00:41:55,430 --> 00:41:53,440
days

1242
00:41:57,030 --> 00:41:55,440
do you leave it all kind of out in your

1243
00:41:57,430 --> 00:41:57,040
living room and say gee i just hope they

1244
00:42:00,069 --> 00:41:57,440
don't

1245
00:42:01,349 --> 00:42:00,079
knock down that door or do you go bury

1246
00:42:03,670 --> 00:42:01,359
the [\h__\h]

1247
00:42:04,390 --> 00:42:03,680
you go bury it that's what everyone has

1248
00:42:07,270 --> 00:42:04,400
done

1249
00:42:09,829 --> 00:42:07,280
throughout time when you asked me about

1250
00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:09,839
josephus um

1251
00:42:13,750 --> 00:42:12,240
like why would he potentially be put in

1252
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:13,760
this position to be adopted in the

1253
00:42:16,069 --> 00:42:14,480
family

1254
00:42:18,069 --> 00:42:16,079
the way he puts it is he was able to

1255
00:42:19,349 --> 00:42:18,079
predict things supposedly

1256
00:42:20,630 --> 00:42:19,359
and josie and i know that you don't

1257
00:42:23,190 --> 00:42:20,640
accept that but let me just fill you but

1258
00:42:24,790 --> 00:42:23,200
does that sound logical to you

1259
00:42:26,390 --> 00:42:24,800
if the guy guessed and he got it right

1260
00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:26,400
it's either my head or i'm dead

1261
00:42:30,069 --> 00:42:27,760
either way i'm going to kill you i

1262
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:30,079
better try it's potential

1263
00:42:33,349 --> 00:42:32,160
if your vespasian is your vespasian is

1264
00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:33,359
that what you do is that what you do

1265
00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:34,000
some guy

1266
00:42:38,150 --> 00:42:36,720
produces your vespasian and you needed

1267
00:42:39,910 --> 00:42:38,160
let me give you one example and let me

1268
00:42:41,270 --> 00:42:39,920
just finish my thought here because

1269
00:42:42,390 --> 00:42:41,280
you cut me off on the last time i was

1270
00:42:42,950 --> 00:42:42,400
trying to finish something i think it's

1271
00:42:45,030 --> 00:42:42,960
important

1272
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:45,040
i apologize no no no you're fine but

1273
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:46,640
it's important to just kind of know

1274
00:42:50,870 --> 00:42:48,880
a different angle even though i like

1275
00:42:52,950 --> 00:42:50,880
look i love this this is fun like i like

1276
00:42:55,829 --> 00:42:52,960
the ideas that are floating

1277
00:42:56,790 --> 00:42:55,839
but if you're vespasian and you need a

1278
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:56,800
representative

1279
00:43:01,750 --> 00:42:59,760
head of israel and you know that not all

1280
00:43:03,750 --> 00:43:01,760
of these guys are rebels not all of them

1281
00:43:05,589 --> 00:43:03,760
are trying to destroy the temple in fact

1282
00:43:06,870 --> 00:43:05,599
you potentially have connections with a

1283
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:06,880
lot of the hasmoneans you have a

1284
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:07,599
connection

1285
00:43:11,589 --> 00:43:09,119
with a lot of the jewish people and you

1286
00:43:14,470 --> 00:43:11,599
need someone who's not only intelligent

1287
00:43:15,670 --> 00:43:14,480
but could potentially be a speaker on

1288
00:43:17,670 --> 00:43:15,680
behalf of

1289
00:43:19,910 --> 00:43:17,680
this coordination between rome and the

1290
00:43:20,870 --> 00:43:19,920
jews then what you might have is someone

1291
00:43:23,030 --> 00:43:20,880
that's good leverage

1292
00:43:24,550 --> 00:43:23,040
to use to coordinate with these people

1293
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:24,560
you might think well rome just wants to

1294
00:43:27,030 --> 00:43:26,400
go in and ass rape everybody and destroy

1295
00:43:29,109 --> 00:43:27,040
them all

1296
00:43:30,230 --> 00:43:29,119
but really they the way that the history

1297
00:43:31,349 --> 00:43:30,240
played out they weren't trying to

1298
00:43:33,990 --> 00:43:31,359
absolutely destroy

1299
00:43:34,870 --> 00:43:34,000
every every jew out there so the idea

1300
00:43:38,230 --> 00:43:34,880
that

1301
00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:38,240
he is the actual jewish messiah i see

1302
00:43:42,550 --> 00:43:39,520
that as the same way that

1303
00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:42,560
cyrus in the old testament was also the

1304
00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:45,200
messiah in persia over the jews and he

1305
00:43:48,069 --> 00:43:46,800
also helped them go back to build their

1306
00:43:50,230 --> 00:43:48,079
temple and such

1307
00:43:51,910 --> 00:43:50,240
problem is the romans didn't allow them

1308
00:43:54,069 --> 00:43:51,920
to go back and build their temple

1309
00:43:56,309 --> 00:43:54,079
after this that was game over domitian

1310
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:56,319
even persecuted the christians and such

1311
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,880
if you take this as history but the idea

1312
00:44:03,589 --> 00:44:00,400
that i was getting at was

1313
00:44:05,750 --> 00:44:03,599
what what what leads us to think

1314
00:44:07,030 --> 00:44:05,760
that these romans disappeared and went

1315
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:07,040
with this money this whole legion and

1316
00:44:12,150 --> 00:44:08,560
went to america what

1317
00:44:14,309 --> 00:44:12,160
what leads us to think that's the case

1318
00:44:16,069 --> 00:44:14,319
well first of all that's brody's

1319
00:44:19,589 --> 00:44:16,079
hypothesis and he's got

1320
00:44:23,430 --> 00:44:19,599
what's his name dave brody and the book

1321
00:44:24,870 --> 00:44:23,440
is america he's

1322
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:24,880
great you should have you should have

1323
00:44:29,829 --> 00:44:26,880
him on it let me kind of address your

1324
00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:29,839
question how does he know that

1325
00:44:33,829 --> 00:44:32,480
so one of the one of the hard pieces of

1326
00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:33,839
data that they have

1327
00:44:38,230 --> 00:44:37,280
are coins these second century roman

1328
00:44:41,030 --> 00:44:38,240
coins

1329
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:41,040
that wash up on in new england close to

1330
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:43,040
where he lives sometimes like after a

1331
00:44:47,190 --> 00:44:44,720
big storm

1332
00:44:48,790 --> 00:44:47,200
which the logical conclusion is there's

1333
00:44:50,710 --> 00:44:48,800
a ship out there

1334
00:44:52,069 --> 00:44:50,720
it shouldn't be out there it shouldn't

1335
00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:52,079
be dumping second

1336
00:44:56,950 --> 00:44:55,200
century only second century roman coins

1337
00:44:58,550 --> 00:44:56,960
and here is kind of the little tidbit

1338
00:45:00,630 --> 00:44:58,560
that i found was really interesting

1339
00:45:02,790 --> 00:45:00,640
so he tells me this whole thing he tells

1340
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:02,800
me the carbon dating of uh

1341
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:06,880
foundry pits in uh tennessee

1342
00:45:12,710 --> 00:45:10,640
the map from the army corps of engineers

1343
00:45:13,750 --> 00:45:12,720
that is shaped just like a medora the

1344
00:45:15,270 --> 00:45:13,760
fort that they

1345
00:45:17,349 --> 00:45:15,280
uncovered under the ground and stuff

1346
00:45:18,950 --> 00:45:17,359
like that he has real archaeological

1347
00:45:20,550 --> 00:45:18,960
data he has about a hundred pages of it

1348
00:45:22,790 --> 00:45:20,560
in his book

1349
00:45:24,870 --> 00:45:22,800
so i'm talking to dave and i'm like man

1350
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:24,880
[\h__\h] hey this is exactly what i hear

1351
00:45:28,390 --> 00:45:26,560
about how phony these some of these

1352
00:45:28,870 --> 00:45:28,400
[\h__\h] scholars quote unquote scholars

1353
00:45:31,430 --> 00:45:28,880
are

1354
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:31,440
but then i said like you i mean i might

1355
00:45:36,069 --> 00:45:33,119
not sound like but i'm very

1356
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:36,079
you know i molded over and i go how do i

1357
00:45:38,630 --> 00:45:37,920
know what he's saying is really true i

1358
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:38,640
said dave

1359
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:42,400
you told me how these roman coin thing

1360
00:45:45,589 --> 00:45:44,640
how scholars have kind of given this

1361
00:45:49,190 --> 00:45:45,599
ridiculous

1362
00:45:52,470 --> 00:45:49,200
explanation that well maybe a guy had a

1363
00:45:56,069 --> 00:45:52,480
coin collection and he went to the beach

1364
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:56,079
and he dropped the coins i go that is so

1365
00:45:59,270 --> 00:45:57,839
freaking stupid you can't tell me that

1366
00:46:01,349 --> 00:45:59,280
some scholar wrote that

1367
00:46:03,030 --> 00:46:01,359
so i i emailed dave and i said dave you

1368
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:03,040
know dav can you back that up can you

1369
00:46:05,030 --> 00:46:03,680
tell me

1370
00:46:06,630 --> 00:46:05,040
and he goes uh because the other one

1371
00:46:07,349 --> 00:46:06,640
they have is that maybe birds flew by

1372
00:46:09,430 --> 00:46:07,359
and dropped him

1373
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:09,440
he said well i i can't really lay my

1374
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:11,040
hand really quickly on the bird one but

1375
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:12,480
here's the one

1376
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:14,960
on the coin collector and lo and behold

1377
00:46:18,630 --> 00:46:16,560
he sends me this

1378
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:18,640
you know published peer-reviewed in some

1379
00:46:24,550 --> 00:46:21,599
phony biblical scholarship

1380
00:46:25,510 --> 00:46:24,560
journal whatever those guys do the coin

1381
00:46:31,030 --> 00:46:25,520
collector

1382
00:46:32,550 --> 00:46:31,040
you know every five years when there's a

1383
00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:32,560
storm i mean it's

1384
00:46:37,670 --> 00:46:35,599
it's just absurdity and yet we have to

1385
00:46:39,510 --> 00:46:37,680
kind of take it seriously because

1386
00:46:41,190 --> 00:46:39,520
that's an expert from michigan state

1387
00:46:42,950 --> 00:46:41,200
university it really

1388
00:46:44,069 --> 00:46:42,960
it really makes no sense and i'm going

1389
00:46:45,510 --> 00:46:44,079
to go on and on here but i'll try and

1390
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:45,520
wrap it up with

1391
00:46:52,230 --> 00:46:48,560
so josephus what what

1392
00:46:56,069 --> 00:46:52,240
most moderns would say is that

1393
00:46:59,349 --> 00:46:56,079
the prospect that josephus had access

1394
00:47:02,069 --> 00:46:59,359
to all that freaking gold that you see

1395
00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:02,079
in the arch of titus that still stands

1396
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:03,359
there today

1397
00:47:07,190 --> 00:47:06,000
and was used then here's the interesting

1398
00:47:09,109 --> 00:47:07,200
part so they used it to build the

1399
00:47:10,870 --> 00:47:09,119
coliseum you all hear that

1400
00:47:12,309 --> 00:47:10,880
but whether what it was really used for

1401
00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:12,319
if you trace that history

1402
00:47:18,550 --> 00:47:15,440
the spazian is kind of in the running

1403
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:18,560
for emperor but he doesn't run to rome

1404
00:47:23,190 --> 00:47:20,559
what he does is he goes and gets the

1405
00:47:26,230 --> 00:47:23,200
probably goes and gets the gold

1406
00:47:27,829 --> 00:47:26,240
sails down to egypt gets his army

1407
00:47:28,710 --> 00:47:27,839
together because he knows what roman

1408
00:47:35,109 --> 00:47:28,720
armies like

1409
00:47:35,750 --> 00:47:35,119
and he gets his army together and then

1410
00:47:37,829 --> 00:47:35,760
he goes

1411
00:47:40,230 --> 00:47:37,839
to rome that's that's the part that we

1412
00:47:42,150 --> 00:47:40,240
don't we we know that part

1413
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:42,160
but we don't know where he got the money

1414
00:47:47,829 --> 00:47:44,160
we don't know where he got the gold

1415
00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:47,839
it makes a lot more sense and so

1416
00:47:52,790 --> 00:47:50,400
yeah that could be i mean if it's

1417
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:52,800
possible josephus had

1418
00:47:56,950 --> 00:47:55,200
some type of connection save your hide

1419
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,960
i'm not only going to save your high but

1420
00:48:01,030 --> 00:47:58,240
i'll potentially use you

1421
00:48:02,630 --> 00:48:01,040
you you're useful so what i'm saying

1422
00:48:04,150 --> 00:48:02,640
could be true on top of the fact that

1423
00:48:07,829 --> 00:48:04,160
there's a gold thing here

1424
00:48:08,790 --> 00:48:07,839
i mean why get rid of a uh ambassador

1425
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:08,800
who could speak

1426
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:11,520
between the jews and of course and write

1427
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:12,800
this history

1428
00:48:17,109 --> 00:48:15,119
that's potential yeah i mean i look i'm

1429
00:48:18,549 --> 00:48:17,119
not an expert in anything i'm a jack of

1430
00:48:20,950 --> 00:48:18,559
all trades but

1431
00:48:23,190 --> 00:48:20,960
um one thing i would do like for example

1432
00:48:24,790 --> 00:48:23,200
with our friend here romerica

1433
00:48:26,710 --> 00:48:24,800
i wouldn't go to one scholar from

1434
00:48:28,470 --> 00:48:26,720
michigan state to try and explain these

1435
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:28,480
things right i don't know and i'm

1436
00:48:33,990 --> 00:48:30,319
pushing back on purpose to say

1437
00:48:36,069 --> 00:48:34,000
i'm a skeptic so like at heart i want to

1438
00:48:38,549 --> 00:48:36,079
challenge the like any position that

1439
00:48:40,710 --> 00:48:38,559
comes up it sounds pretty it sounds cool

1440
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:40,720
cool let me see what scholars say about

1441
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:42,800
this because i won't have the time in my

1442
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:43,680
life

1443
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:45,680
running a show that i do and everything

1444
00:48:48,309 --> 00:48:47,200
to literally say you know what i think

1445
00:48:50,790 --> 00:48:48,319
i'm going to do

1446
00:48:52,950 --> 00:48:50,800
i'm going to become a coin expert figure

1447
00:48:54,630 --> 00:48:52,960
out how to discern the metals and how we

1448
00:48:55,270 --> 00:48:54,640
can find out dating of all these things

1449
00:48:59,349 --> 00:48:55,280
and like

1450
00:49:00,630 --> 00:48:59,359
college for eight years

1451
00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:00,640
learning all this stuff like i don't

1452
00:49:03,910 --> 00:49:02,480
have the expertise expertise

1453
00:49:05,910 --> 00:49:03,920
on that and i don't plan on doing it

1454
00:49:08,309 --> 00:49:05,920
it's not my drive i like communicating

1455
00:49:09,670 --> 00:49:08,319
but um i just don't have the time to

1456
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:09,680
delve in a lot of this stuff so a lot of

1457
00:49:13,910 --> 00:49:12,000
what we rely on is scholarship

1458
00:49:16,309 --> 00:49:13,920
but i would be interested before i call

1459
00:49:18,710 --> 00:49:16,319
them phony baloney scholars because

1460
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:18,720
sure there are some don't get me wrong

1461
00:49:20,549 --> 00:49:20,000
i'm sure some of them that i would look

1462
00:49:22,950 --> 00:49:20,559
at go

1463
00:49:24,549 --> 00:49:22,960
dude he's as wrong as i there's nothing

1464
00:49:25,829 --> 00:49:24,559
else i can compare to that's how wrong i

1465
00:49:27,109 --> 00:49:25,839
think this guy might be

1466
00:49:28,390 --> 00:49:27,119
but then there are other scholars who

1467
00:49:29,910 --> 00:49:28,400
don't agree with them and i might have a

1468
00:49:31,030 --> 00:49:29,920
different position so i want to look

1469
00:49:33,349 --> 00:49:31,040
around

1470
00:49:35,750 --> 00:49:33,359
and see what's out there because before

1471
00:49:36,069 --> 00:49:35,760
i used to go to what sounds interesting

1472
00:49:38,470 --> 00:49:36,079
what

1473
00:49:39,589 --> 00:49:38,480
sounds like oh snap there's a secret

1474
00:49:41,430 --> 00:49:39,599
story here

1475
00:49:43,190 --> 00:49:41,440
and this is what's really going on and

1476
00:49:44,790 --> 00:49:43,200
it does sound cool because we like

1477
00:49:47,270 --> 00:49:44,800
stories but

1478
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:47,280
is it factual is it actually history and

1479
00:49:49,670 --> 00:49:48,000
uh

1480
00:49:51,750 --> 00:49:49,680
look i just i just want to find that out

1481
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:51,760
myself the best we can because a lot of

1482
00:49:53,990 --> 00:49:53,359
it's been lost and there's no way to

1483
00:49:57,190 --> 00:49:54,000
know

1484
00:49:57,990 --> 00:49:57,200
with certainty in many respects totally

1485
00:50:00,470 --> 00:49:58,000
totally agree

1486
00:50:01,670 --> 00:50:00,480
and we ought to stay on that topic for a

1487
00:50:03,030 --> 00:50:01,680
minute you said you have an interview

1488
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:03,040
coming up with shermer

1489
00:50:06,069 --> 00:50:05,119
i already did like yeah michael shermer

1490
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:06,079
you've already done it you're going to

1491
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:06,720
publish it

1492
00:50:10,950 --> 00:50:08,880
i've had him on the show uh several

1493
00:50:12,230 --> 00:50:10,960
times because when i say phony baloney

1494
00:50:14,309 --> 00:50:12,240
scholars you know

1495
00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:14,319
where i really started with this thing

1496
00:50:19,750 --> 00:50:15,599
derek for me

1497
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:19,760
is with um you know i just kind of saw

1498
00:50:24,549 --> 00:50:21,040
the skeptic kind of

1499
00:50:27,349 --> 00:50:24,559
atheist community as being kind of

1500
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:27,359
jumping from one cult to another in a

1501
00:50:30,710 --> 00:50:28,559
way that

1502
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:30,720
you're not talking directly about but my

1503
00:50:34,309 --> 00:50:32,160
interpretation of it is

1504
00:50:37,109 --> 00:50:34,319
is kind of a lot of that so i was

1505
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:37,119
looking at parapsychology as

1506
00:50:40,950 --> 00:50:38,960
because the skeptics were coming down

1507
00:50:42,549 --> 00:50:40,960
really hard on the parapsychology

1508
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:42,559
and to do that you really have to dig

1509
00:50:48,069 --> 00:50:44,960
into the science you have to look at the

1510
00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:48,079
the peer reviews and the meta-analysis

1511
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:49,839
and you have to do all that

1512
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:52,640
and i guess the the what i come across

1513
00:50:56,549 --> 00:50:53,520
with sometimes

1514
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:56,559
is i was just surprised at the amount of

1515
00:50:59,670 --> 00:50:57,520
bullshitters

1516
00:51:01,910 --> 00:50:59,680
that i found even within the

1517
00:51:04,470 --> 00:51:01,920
quote-unquote hard sciences

1518
00:51:04,950 --> 00:51:04,480
and the the means that they used to kind

1519
00:51:07,270 --> 00:51:04,960
of

1520
00:51:08,950 --> 00:51:07,280
advance a certain narrative and michael

1521
00:51:11,030 --> 00:51:08,960
shermer and again

1522
00:51:13,430 --> 00:51:11,040
he is like one of my favorite enemies

1523
00:51:15,750 --> 00:51:13,440
frenemies right

1524
00:51:16,870 --> 00:51:15,760
i love him i love talking to him he's

1525
00:51:18,870 --> 00:51:16,880
full of [\h__\h]

1526
00:51:20,309 --> 00:51:18,880
like when i had him on the show he

1527
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:20,319
thinks you are huh

1528
00:51:24,069 --> 00:51:22,079
well no i don't think he i don't think

1529
00:51:26,870 --> 00:51:24,079
he held up very well i mean you can go

1530
00:51:27,910 --> 00:51:26,880
but he he wrote a book on afterlife uh

1531
00:51:30,549 --> 00:51:27,920
kind of stuff

1532
00:51:32,390 --> 00:51:30,559
and i just so happens i've done about 50

1533
00:51:34,630 --> 00:51:32,400
interviews with some of the

1534
00:51:36,230 --> 00:51:34,640
world's leading experts on near-death

1535
00:51:38,309 --> 00:51:36,240
experience science

1536
00:51:39,589 --> 00:51:38,319
so i've talked to all these experts

1537
00:51:42,790 --> 00:51:39,599
including you know like

1538
00:51:45,670 --> 00:51:42,800
the leading resuscitation expert

1539
00:51:46,470 --> 00:51:45,680
in the world dr sam parnia he's not just

1540
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:46,480
a

1541
00:51:54,950 --> 00:51:53,280
just interviewed

1542
00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:54,960
dr bruce grayson from the university of

1543
00:51:58,549 --> 00:51:56,400
virginia another

1544
00:52:00,069 --> 00:51:58,559
you know highly esteemed you know

1545
00:52:02,630 --> 00:52:00,079
presents at the u.n

1546
00:52:03,349 --> 00:52:02,640
kind of all these guys all same the same

1547
00:52:05,430 --> 00:52:03,359
thing and

1548
00:52:07,349 --> 00:52:05,440
shurmur writes a book and he misquotes

1549
00:52:09,589 --> 00:52:07,359
them and misrepresents them

1550
00:52:10,870 --> 00:52:09,599
and that's what i pointed out i said

1551
00:52:13,430 --> 00:52:10,880
michael you're

1552
00:52:15,829 --> 00:52:13,440
you're not only misrepresenting these

1553
00:52:18,630 --> 00:52:15,839
people but you're doing it so badly

1554
00:52:19,670 --> 00:52:18,640
that people like dr pin von lammel in

1555
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:19,680
the netherlands

1556
00:52:23,190 --> 00:52:22,079
is having to write to the scientific

1557
00:52:26,790 --> 00:52:23,200
americans saying

1558
00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:26,800
this guy is totally changed what i said

1559
00:52:30,870 --> 00:52:28,880
he's reporting on my science

1560
00:52:32,470 --> 00:52:30,880
and he's completely misreporting it and

1561
00:52:33,829 --> 00:52:32,480
i called shurmur on that he goes you

1562
00:52:35,910 --> 00:52:33,839
know typical sherman well

1563
00:52:38,470 --> 00:52:35,920
i guess we'll have to agree to disagree

1564
00:52:40,710 --> 00:52:38,480
or that's my interpretation it's like

1565
00:52:42,309 --> 00:52:40,720
no dude if you're a science reporter you

1566
00:52:45,670 --> 00:52:42,319
first have to say

1567
00:52:46,710 --> 00:52:45,680
this is what the scientist said and then

1568
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:46,720
you can

1569
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:49,200
differentiate and said here is my

1570
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:50,960
difference of opinion based on what i've

1571
00:52:53,670 --> 00:52:51,359
done

1572
00:52:54,630 --> 00:52:53,680
so you can anyone can go watch that that

1573
00:52:57,430 --> 00:52:54,640
interview but

1574
00:52:59,109 --> 00:52:57,440
no he's not he's he he really isn't

1575
00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:59,119
playing by

1576
00:53:03,109 --> 00:53:00,960
the rules of science he has a different

1577
00:53:04,950 --> 00:53:03,119
agenda and he's trying to advance that

1578
00:53:07,030 --> 00:53:04,960
agenda

1579
00:53:09,510 --> 00:53:07,040
well uh if you want me to comment on it

1580
00:53:11,510 --> 00:53:09,520
i i can't speak on that i don't yes

1581
00:53:12,870 --> 00:53:11,520
right look look here's the thing

1582
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:12,880
everyone has an agenda

1583
00:53:16,069 --> 00:53:14,880
everyone i don't care who it is everyone

1584
00:53:18,390 --> 00:53:16,079
has biases

1585
00:53:19,829 --> 00:53:18,400
everyone has an agenda it's your team

1586
00:53:21,750 --> 00:53:19,839
that you want to support and that's

1587
00:53:24,150 --> 00:53:21,760
really what seems to be the most

1588
00:53:25,750 --> 00:53:24,160
uh the that's what i'm trying not to do

1589
00:53:28,309 --> 00:53:25,760
as much as possible exactly

1590
00:53:30,950 --> 00:53:28,319
when i go into this but i i admit like i

1591
00:53:32,549 --> 00:53:30,960
say this openly on my channel

1592
00:53:34,309 --> 00:53:32,559
i don't believe in the supernatural

1593
00:53:37,670 --> 00:53:34,319
right that doesn't mean it's not there

1594
00:53:39,910 --> 00:53:37,680
okay i i'm not saying it can't be

1595
00:53:41,270 --> 00:53:39,920
i'm saying at this point from my own

1596
00:53:41,829 --> 00:53:41,280
experience and from everything that i've

1597
00:53:43,750 --> 00:53:41,839
been

1598
00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:43,760
doing when people talk about near-death

1599
00:53:46,390 --> 00:53:45,359
experiences when people talk about these

1600
00:53:47,910 --> 00:53:46,400
experiences they've had i've

1601
00:53:50,549 --> 00:53:47,920
hallucinated i've done drugs

1602
00:53:52,390 --> 00:53:50,559
that have made me see things and go

1603
00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:52,400
places and all that kind of stuff

1604
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:55,200
and i now equate those experiences down

1605
00:53:58,549 --> 00:53:57,680
to the phenomena that goes on in my

1606
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:58,559
brain

1607
00:54:01,910 --> 00:54:00,079
i understand other people want to say

1608
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:01,920
it's more they want to say this and that

1609
00:54:06,950 --> 00:54:04,960
i'm looking for an answer that's natural

1610
00:54:09,270 --> 00:54:06,960
i purposely say that because i've never

1611
00:54:12,710 --> 00:54:09,280
actually honestly explored

1612
00:54:16,069 --> 00:54:12,720
open-mindedly and said could this all be

1613
00:54:17,910 --> 00:54:16,079
the brain could this all be my mind

1614
00:54:20,150 --> 00:54:17,920
giving me these experiences and causing

1615
00:54:21,910 --> 00:54:20,160
these things some people say no no no

1616
00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:21,920
they're more open to those ideas and

1617
00:54:26,230 --> 00:54:23,680
they think the experiences

1618
00:54:27,430 --> 00:54:26,240
are kind of the evidences that we need

1619
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:27,440
in order to prove

1620
00:54:31,510 --> 00:54:29,920
these things are true and for me i've

1621
00:54:33,829 --> 00:54:31,520
had quite a bit of experiences and

1622
00:54:35,589 --> 00:54:33,839
they've been kind of false alarms or

1623
00:54:37,349 --> 00:54:35,599
fake experiences that i thought were

1624
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:37,359
legit and it's like hold on

1625
00:54:40,710 --> 00:54:38,960
was that just serotonin was that

1626
00:54:43,670 --> 00:54:40,720
endorphins in the brain being released

1627
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:43,680
so like for me man i'm extremely

1628
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:45,839
cautious on jumping to

1629
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:48,240
people can tell like telepath they could

1630
00:54:51,190 --> 00:54:50,000
telepathically do things or they can

1631
00:54:53,910 --> 00:54:51,200
remote view or

1632
00:54:54,950 --> 00:54:53,920
like any of that stuff is it possible

1633
00:54:57,589 --> 00:54:54,960
maybe

1634
00:54:59,349 --> 00:54:57,599
i just it's possible dead people rise

1635
00:55:01,430 --> 00:54:59,359
from the dead and people walk on water

1636
00:55:03,190 --> 00:55:01,440
it's possible that like where do we draw

1637
00:55:06,470 --> 00:55:03,200
the line and how do we know what is

1638
00:55:09,589 --> 00:55:06,480
myth and what is reality at the you know

1639
00:55:11,589 --> 00:55:09,599
there's so many things that i now

1640
00:55:13,430 --> 00:55:11,599
like start with i don't think they're

1641
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:13,440
true but

1642
00:55:16,710 --> 00:55:15,359
if you proved it to me i would believe

1643
00:55:18,069 --> 00:55:16,720
it you see what i'm saying if i had it

1644
00:55:21,109 --> 00:55:18,079
yeah i see what you're saying but see

1645
00:55:23,109 --> 00:55:21,119
see that that to me is is the

1646
00:55:24,470 --> 00:55:23,119
flat earth science what i call flatter

1647
00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:24,480
science because

1648
00:55:27,990 --> 00:55:26,559
what the flat earth science guy always

1649
00:55:30,870 --> 00:55:28,000
says is

1650
00:55:32,710 --> 00:55:30,880
prove it to me i'm an uber empiricist

1651
00:55:35,030 --> 00:55:32,720
that's what the flat earth guy says

1652
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:35,040
i see the sun out there i see the earth

1653
00:55:41,030 --> 00:55:37,920
as flat prove to me otherwise

1654
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:41,040
i suggest that that's not a very good

1655
00:55:44,710 --> 00:55:43,359
starting point what i suggest is that

1656
00:55:47,430 --> 00:55:44,720
there is this

1657
00:55:47,990 --> 00:55:47,440
with skepticism no because and that's

1658
00:55:50,309 --> 00:55:48,000
another

1659
00:55:52,230 --> 00:55:50,319
kind of thing in this kind of you know

1660
00:55:53,829 --> 00:55:52,240
what what i call or what my

1661
00:55:55,990 --> 00:55:53,839
my friend chris knowles calls is the

1662
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:56,000
kind of i [\h__\h] love

1663
00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:58,559
science kind of uh vibe thing which is

1664
00:56:01,990 --> 00:55:59,760
so ridiculous

1665
00:56:03,109 --> 00:56:02,000
in so many ways but you know it's this

1666
00:56:05,349 --> 00:56:03,119
whole thing is oh man

1667
00:56:07,430 --> 00:56:05,359
i so [\h__\h] love science science is so

1668
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:07,440
cool science answers everything for me

1669
00:56:10,470 --> 00:56:08,400
it's like

1670
00:56:12,390 --> 00:56:10,480
well just make sure you're not jumping

1671
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:12,400
from one cult to another but like when

1672
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:14,480
people say skepticism is important part

1673
00:56:18,630 --> 00:56:15,520
of science

1674
00:56:22,069 --> 00:56:18,640
no man science is designed to

1675
00:56:24,549 --> 00:56:22,079
avoid the whole idea of skepticism

1676
00:56:25,910 --> 00:56:24,559
in terms of do the freaking experiment

1677
00:56:28,870 --> 00:56:25,920
apply the controls

1678
00:56:30,150 --> 00:56:28,880
apply the methods and it doesn't matter

1679
00:56:32,230 --> 00:56:30,160
your biases

1680
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:32,240
so if you're a true believer or if

1681
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:33,760
you're a true skeptic

1682
00:56:37,109 --> 00:56:35,680
if you do the science right and you

1683
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:37,119
replicate your experiment

1684
00:56:40,950 --> 00:56:38,880
experiment enough and then you have

1685
00:56:42,710 --> 00:56:40,960
other labs replicated enough

1686
00:56:44,789 --> 00:56:42,720
then you have a result that you can

1687
00:56:46,549 --> 00:56:44,799
report and your bias

1688
00:56:47,829 --> 00:56:46,559
what we would call being skeptical or

1689
00:56:50,230 --> 00:56:47,839
being a believer

1690
00:56:52,789 --> 00:56:50,240
fades away it's like this idea that that

1691
00:56:54,789 --> 00:56:52,799
also you know so many people in the

1692
00:56:55,990 --> 00:56:54,799
these atheists kind of cross over to

1693
00:56:57,990 --> 00:56:56,000
skeptics kind of

1694
00:56:59,589 --> 00:56:58,000
in a kind of weird way that you know

1695
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:59,599
we've explored in terms of social

1696
00:57:02,710 --> 00:57:00,960
engineering and stuff like that

1697
00:57:04,789 --> 00:57:02,720
but it's like this extraordinary claims

1698
00:57:07,910 --> 00:57:04,799
require extraordinary proof

1699
00:57:11,829 --> 00:57:07,920
nonsense science is about is about

1700
00:57:15,910 --> 00:57:11,839
exactly the opposite of that science

1701
00:57:17,589 --> 00:57:15,920
jesus rose from the dead right um

1702
00:57:19,349 --> 00:57:17,599
christians said they experienced that

1703
00:57:22,069 --> 00:57:19,359
they actually saw him paul claims that

1704
00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:22,079
he saw this right he rose from the dead

1705
00:57:26,069 --> 00:57:24,240
um in order for you to believe that what

1706
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:26,079
would you need in order to believe that

1707
00:57:28,630 --> 00:57:27,760
jesus rose from the dead what would

1708
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:28,640
convince you

1709
00:57:31,750 --> 00:57:30,960
that he rose from the dead well again

1710
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:31,760
you know so

1711
00:57:35,910 --> 00:57:34,720
yeah so i'd go back i'd go back because

1712
00:57:40,470 --> 00:57:35,920
you've had these people

1713
00:57:42,870 --> 00:57:40,480
on your show the apologists and i think

1714
00:57:46,470 --> 00:57:42,880
they they don't stand up well at all

1715
00:57:47,750 --> 00:57:46,480
and i mean you do a very uh nice job i

1716
00:57:49,589 --> 00:57:47,760
mean you have a good

1717
00:57:51,349 --> 00:57:49,599
a good flow and you're not as

1718
00:57:53,030 --> 00:57:51,359
adversarial as i am so you kind of let

1719
00:57:54,309 --> 00:57:53,040
these people have their moment and stuff

1720
00:57:57,190 --> 00:57:54,319
like that

1721
00:57:58,789 --> 00:57:57,200
i said no i'm not you're hiding it you

1722
00:58:01,510 --> 00:57:58,799
hide it better

1723
00:58:03,109 --> 00:58:01,520
i i do yeah no i mean i do and honestly

1724
00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:03,119
i want to push back on some of the stuff

1725
00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:04,720
that you are saying

1726
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:08,160
um not because i'm right but i i

1727
00:58:11,990 --> 00:58:10,160
i feel like you might be pushing it

1728
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:12,000
overboard in my opinion but then again

1729
00:58:14,950 --> 00:58:13,280
that's your experience and that's the

1730
00:58:15,670 --> 00:58:14,960
way that your your perception of this

1731
00:58:18,230 --> 00:58:15,680
whole thing has

1732
00:58:20,230 --> 00:58:18,240
no it's the data it's the data it's like

1733
00:58:23,670 --> 00:58:20,240
you said the thing on jesus christ and

1734
00:58:26,470 --> 00:58:23,680
what i say is when i hear apologists

1735
00:58:27,589 --> 00:58:26,480
they're opening what i what i feel is

1736
00:58:29,829 --> 00:58:27,599
lacking sometimes

1737
00:58:30,710 --> 00:58:29,839
in this discussion because we get pulled

1738
00:58:33,430 --> 00:58:30,720
into the

1739
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:33,440
bart airman textual analysis because

1740
00:58:37,030 --> 00:58:35,040
he's figured out a way to sell books to

1741
00:58:38,309 --> 00:58:37,040
christians but i would say derek

1742
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:38,319
that if you look at near-death

1743
00:58:42,150 --> 00:58:40,720
experience science and you don't just

1744
00:58:43,030 --> 00:58:42,160
listen to the bullshitters like michael

1745
00:58:46,390 --> 00:58:43,040
sherman

1746
00:58:47,670 --> 00:58:46,400
the burden of proof is on the person who

1747
00:58:48,630 --> 00:58:47,680
doesn't believe in you don't say you've

1748
00:58:50,630 --> 00:58:48,640
looked into the data

1749
00:58:52,630 --> 00:58:50,640
they've looked at dmt they've looked at

1750
00:58:55,270 --> 00:58:52,640
chemicals in the blood they've looked at

1751
00:58:56,710 --> 00:58:55,280
all that stuff for 30 years you've just

1752
00:58:59,589 --> 00:58:56,720
been conditioned to believe

1753
00:59:00,870 --> 00:58:59,599
that michael shermer is holding down the

1754
00:59:03,670 --> 00:59:00,880
fort there and that

1755
00:59:05,109 --> 00:59:03,680
he i'm not conditioned of anything um

1756
00:59:07,589 --> 00:59:05,119
and number two

1757
00:59:09,349 --> 00:59:07,599
uh i don't conclude that consciousness

1758
00:59:11,510 --> 00:59:09,359
goes after death i don't think anyone

1759
00:59:12,069 --> 00:59:11,520
can conclude that that is a matter of

1760
00:59:13,750 --> 00:59:12,079
fact

1761
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:13,760
but that's what the scientists conclude

1762
00:59:17,190 --> 00:59:15,119
i'm saying that's what the leading

1763
00:59:18,150 --> 00:59:17,200
scientists in the field conclude there's

1764
00:59:20,230 --> 00:59:18,160
really no

1765
00:59:21,750 --> 00:59:20,240
there really aren't any dissenters if

1766
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:21,760
you mean consciousness

1767
00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:25,119
experience right um this idea that

1768
00:59:27,510 --> 00:59:26,960
people are having experiences during

1769
00:59:29,109 --> 00:59:27,520
near-death

1770
00:59:30,309 --> 00:59:29,119
experience and they call it an

1771
00:59:32,230 --> 00:59:30,319
experience near death what do you

1772
00:59:34,630 --> 00:59:32,240
understand consciousness to be

1773
00:59:36,230 --> 00:59:34,640
well obviously we have experiences i

1774
00:59:37,910 --> 00:59:36,240
would say it's it's you me being

1775
00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:37,920
sentient beings people who have

1776
00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:40,720
awareness and know that you know i am

1777
00:59:42,710 --> 00:59:42,400
knowing that you know that i'm talking

1778
00:59:43,990 --> 00:59:42,720
to you

1779
00:59:46,870 --> 00:59:44,000
these type of things like i did an

1780
00:59:48,309 --> 00:59:46,880
interview recently with dr mark solmes

1781
00:59:50,230 --> 00:59:48,319
i don't take consciousness in the

1782
00:59:51,270 --> 00:59:50,240
philosophical round like a non-dualist

1783
00:59:53,109 --> 00:59:51,280
would and say

1784
00:59:55,109 --> 00:59:53,119
everything is consciousness like pan

1785
00:59:57,510 --> 00:59:55,119
psychism or some other form

1786
00:59:58,549 --> 00:59:57,520
i'm looking i'm starting here i'm

1787
01:00:01,990 --> 00:59:58,559
starting small

1788
01:00:03,750 --> 01:00:02,000
i used to be a maximalist who thought

1789
01:00:05,750 --> 01:00:03,760
all of these ideas are potential and

1790
01:00:07,430 --> 01:00:05,760
these are true i'm starting with like

1791
01:00:08,150 --> 01:00:07,440
you talk about concrete evidence that we

1792
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:08,160
need to look at

1793
01:00:12,230 --> 01:00:10,319
testable observable things one thing i

1794
01:00:15,510 --> 01:00:12,240
know for certain

1795
01:00:18,230 --> 01:00:15,520
is that we all have these brains that

1796
01:00:19,750 --> 01:00:18,240
have us perceive and experience things

1797
01:00:21,510 --> 01:00:19,760
whether it's elvis coming back from the

1798
01:00:24,789 --> 01:00:21,520
dead jesus rose from the dead

1799
01:00:27,109 --> 01:00:24,799
whatever it might be it most likely

1800
01:00:28,150 --> 01:00:27,119
is something that can be explained with

1801
01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:28,160
our experience

1802
01:00:31,990 --> 01:00:30,160
now whether you want to say it's real i

1803
01:00:35,750 --> 01:00:32,000
think the eye of the beholder the person

1804
01:00:38,390 --> 01:00:36,789
derek here's the thing and i don't want

1805
01:00:39,750 --> 01:00:38,400
to get too far off the track so you pull

1806
01:00:41,910 --> 01:00:39,760
it back anytime you want

1807
01:00:44,309 --> 01:00:41,920
but the consciousness question is

1808
01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:44,319
fundamental it's the first hundred shows

1809
01:00:47,589 --> 01:00:46,160
of skeptico and i wrote a book

1810
01:00:49,190 --> 01:00:47,599
why science is wrong about almost

1811
01:00:50,309 --> 01:00:49,200
everything kind of tongue-in-cheek but

1812
01:00:51,750 --> 01:00:50,319
the point is if you don't get

1813
01:00:53,349 --> 01:00:51,760
consciousness then you can't get any of

1814
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:53,359
this right

1815
01:00:58,150 --> 01:00:56,160
the the current uh paradigm and it's a

1816
01:00:59,349 --> 01:00:58,160
falsified paradigm over and over again

1817
01:01:01,190 --> 01:00:59,359
is that consciousness is an

1818
01:01:03,349 --> 01:01:01,200
epiphenomenon of the brain

1819
01:01:04,309 --> 01:01:03,359
consciousness is purely brain-based

1820
01:01:06,630 --> 01:01:04,319
consciousness

1821
01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:06,640
cannot extend that has been falsified

1822
01:01:11,750 --> 01:01:08,480
over and over again as a matter of fact

1823
01:01:12,870 --> 01:01:11,760
the whole idea of the observer effect if

1824
01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:12,880
you will

1825
01:01:18,470 --> 01:01:16,160
contradicts that notion and then

1826
01:01:20,309 --> 01:01:18,480
that experiment has been replicated it's

1827
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:20,319
one of the most replicated experiments

1828
01:01:23,670 --> 01:01:21,440
in history

1829
01:01:24,630 --> 01:01:23,680
give me some sources on who i should

1830
01:01:26,950 --> 01:01:24,640
look at

1831
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:26,960
that absolutely falsifies that

1832
01:01:30,710 --> 01:01:28,319
consciousness comes from the brain and

1833
01:01:33,349 --> 01:01:30,720
disproves neuroscience on that topic

1834
01:01:35,510 --> 01:01:33,359
great well you know the the best one the

1835
01:01:37,829 --> 01:01:35,520
first of all you so you can go back

1836
01:01:38,630 --> 01:01:37,839
and you can read all the quantum

1837
01:01:41,829 --> 01:01:38,640
physicists

1838
01:01:45,109 --> 01:01:41,839
right and you can look at uh schrodinger

1839
01:01:47,430 --> 01:01:45,119
and niels bohr and uh

1840
01:01:48,470 --> 01:01:47,440
max planck and they all came to that

1841
01:01:51,349 --> 01:01:48,480
conclusion

1842
01:01:51,990 --> 01:01:51,359
after they did the double slit

1843
01:01:53,430 --> 01:01:52,000
experiment

1844
01:01:55,829 --> 01:01:53,440
which is really the consciousness

1845
01:01:57,589 --> 01:01:55,839
experiment but in modern times the guys

1846
01:01:58,549 --> 01:01:57,599
who who's done it as a guy named dean

1847
01:02:02,470 --> 01:01:58,559
rayden

1848
01:02:05,750 --> 01:02:02,480
he's not a christian he doesn't have a

1849
01:02:08,549 --> 01:02:05,760
r-a-d-i-n and he

1850
01:02:09,510 --> 01:02:08,559
you know super phd university illinois

1851
01:02:13,270 --> 01:02:09,520
all this

1852
01:02:16,549 --> 01:02:13,280
but his experiment was to take

1853
01:02:19,990 --> 01:02:16,559
that's him okay cool cool so

1854
01:02:21,190 --> 01:02:20,000
all right so he's a psychologist

1855
01:02:23,109 --> 01:02:21,200
yeah that's what they call them i don't

1856
01:02:25,829 --> 01:02:23,119
know if he if he totally goes

1857
01:02:26,950 --> 01:02:25,839
it's kind of a it's kind of a backwater

1858
01:02:29,190 --> 01:02:26,960
term that they use

1859
01:02:31,190 --> 01:02:29,200
but anyways the experiment that he did

1860
01:02:32,710 --> 01:02:31,200
was kind of a replication

1861
01:02:34,390 --> 01:02:32,720
you're familiar with basically the

1862
01:02:37,029 --> 01:02:34,400
double slit experiment

1863
01:02:38,069 --> 01:02:37,039
uh not really okay so what these guys

1864
01:02:41,430 --> 01:02:38,079
did back in

1865
01:02:42,710 --> 01:02:41,440
1900s early you know 1900s they took a

1866
01:02:44,390 --> 01:02:42,720
photon beam

1867
01:02:45,750 --> 01:02:44,400
generator they had gotten they had just

1868
01:02:47,510 --> 01:02:45,760
figured out this technology they could

1869
01:02:49,430 --> 01:02:47,520
take these little photon beams

1870
01:02:50,710 --> 01:02:49,440
and they shot them through these two

1871
01:02:53,990 --> 01:02:50,720
little slits in these

1872
01:02:55,670 --> 01:02:54,000
steel plates and then there's this thing

1873
01:02:57,430 --> 01:02:55,680
do they come out the other side as a

1874
01:02:59,190 --> 01:02:57,440
pattern or a wave and it gets really

1875
01:03:01,510 --> 01:02:59,200
dorky quantum physics stuff

1876
01:03:02,470 --> 01:03:01,520
but it's very real and the point that

1877
01:03:06,470 --> 01:03:02,480
they

1878
01:03:08,309 --> 01:03:06,480
came to understand is that consciousness

1879
01:03:10,710 --> 01:03:08,319
that is whether or not someone is

1880
01:03:12,390 --> 01:03:10,720
observing the experiment

1881
01:03:14,710 --> 01:03:12,400
causes the experiment to come out one

1882
01:03:16,549 --> 01:03:14,720
way or another way

1883
01:03:18,470 --> 01:03:16,559
and the conclusion that they came to

1884
01:03:19,109 --> 01:03:18,480
this max planck you know the plank scale

1885
01:03:22,549 --> 01:03:19,119
and all that

1886
01:03:24,230 --> 01:03:22,559
and deals bore who was debating uh

1887
01:03:26,230 --> 01:03:24,240
albert einstein and albert einstein

1888
01:03:28,390 --> 01:03:26,240
eventually had to say okay i give up

1889
01:03:30,390 --> 01:03:28,400
it is spooky action at a distance i

1890
01:03:31,029 --> 01:03:30,400
can't which is another part of the same

1891
01:03:32,870 --> 01:03:31,039
kind of thing

1892
01:03:34,069 --> 01:03:32,880
they came back and said yeah

1893
01:03:37,029 --> 01:03:34,079
consciousness

1894
01:03:38,950 --> 01:03:37,039
seems to be fundamental if a tree falls

1895
01:03:41,430 --> 01:03:38,960
in the forest and there's no one there

1896
01:03:43,109 --> 01:03:41,440
well then it doesn't make a sound

1897
01:03:46,309 --> 01:03:43,119
essentially was their conclusion

1898
01:03:47,589 --> 01:03:46,319
as uncomfortable as that sounds it's

1899
01:03:50,069 --> 01:03:47,599
just as uncomfortable as

1900
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:50,079
equals mc squared and time and space

1901
01:03:55,109 --> 01:03:52,559
it's a very uncomfortable idea

1902
01:03:56,470 --> 01:03:55,119
but their best experiments prove that so

1903
01:03:58,710 --> 01:03:56,480
dean rayden

1904
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:58,720
brought that up to speed in modern day

1905
01:04:02,630 --> 01:04:00,240
and he took his own lab

1906
01:04:04,390 --> 01:04:02,640
and he took the photon beam generator

1907
01:04:07,270 --> 01:04:04,400
and he said there's all this debate

1908
01:04:08,470 --> 01:04:07,280
about what an observer is and all that

1909
01:04:11,109 --> 01:04:08,480
screw all that

1910
01:04:12,309 --> 01:04:11,119
i'm gonna put a meditator who it says he

1911
01:04:14,549 --> 01:04:12,319
can do this kind of stuff

1912
01:04:16,069 --> 01:04:14,559
i'm going to put him in a room and say

1913
01:04:19,910 --> 01:04:16,079
affect the photon beam

1914
01:04:21,670 --> 01:04:19,920
when i tell you

1915
01:04:23,430 --> 01:04:21,680
when you're out of the room the photon

1916
01:04:25,190 --> 01:04:23,440
beam isn't affected and you run that

1917
01:04:27,510 --> 01:04:25,200
experiment a few thousand times

1918
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:27,520
and you get a statistically significant

1919
01:04:31,349 --> 01:04:30,079
result he got a six sigma result which

1920
01:04:33,270 --> 01:04:31,359
if you know

1921
01:04:34,549 --> 01:04:33,280
science and you know statistics how this

1922
01:04:38,789 --> 01:04:34,559
stuff is reported it's like

1923
01:04:41,109 --> 01:04:38,799
off the charts it's like nobody gets six

1924
01:04:43,430 --> 01:04:41,119
standard deviations out of the norm it's

1925
01:04:45,190 --> 01:04:43,440
like over the top

1926
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:45,200
that's one experiment but his other

1927
01:04:50,069 --> 01:04:47,760
experiment that's been replicated

1928
01:04:50,789 --> 01:04:50,079
oh like probably one of the most

1929
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:50,799
replicated

1930
01:04:56,230 --> 01:04:54,000
labs across the world

1931
01:04:57,750 --> 01:04:56,240
that don't have any is the pre-sentiment

1932
01:05:00,230 --> 01:04:57,760
experiment where

1933
01:05:01,910 --> 01:05:00,240
people sh it's shown that your body is

1934
01:05:04,390 --> 01:05:01,920
reacting to

1935
01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:04,400
uh a provocative image that's put up on

1936
01:05:06,950 --> 01:05:05,119
the screen

1937
01:05:08,630 --> 01:05:06,960
before that image is selected by the

1938
01:05:11,109 --> 01:05:08,640
computer so you are

1939
01:05:11,910 --> 01:05:11,119
it shows that you're outside of space

1940
01:05:15,349 --> 01:05:11,920
time

1941
01:05:18,390 --> 01:05:15,359
so the conclusion of all this is that

1942
01:05:21,029 --> 01:05:18,400
really if and i got like a hundred shows

1943
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:21,039
all this stuff the the materialistic

1944
01:05:25,510 --> 01:05:22,720
science explanation

1945
01:05:26,630 --> 01:05:25,520
that you are that your consciousness is

1946
01:05:29,829 --> 01:05:26,640
an epiphenomenon

1947
01:05:31,270 --> 01:05:29,839
of your brain has been falsified but the

1948
01:05:33,829 --> 01:05:31,280
thing that i always point out

1949
01:05:35,029 --> 01:05:33,839
is that there's a conspiratorial part of

1950
01:05:37,430 --> 01:05:35,039
that in that

1951
01:05:38,470 --> 01:05:37,440
like you you said you don't know too

1952
01:05:40,710 --> 01:05:38,480
much about the mk

1953
01:05:42,309 --> 01:05:40,720
ultra thing or the remote viewing thing

1954
01:05:45,670 --> 01:05:42,319
right i've heard i

1955
01:05:46,950 --> 01:05:45,680
i know of it i don't really sure sure no

1956
01:05:47,990 --> 01:05:46,960
that's and that's fair and i'll wrap

1957
01:05:49,109 --> 01:05:48,000
this up because i don't want to like

1958
01:05:51,109 --> 01:05:49,119
steal the mic

1959
01:05:52,789 --> 01:05:51,119
entirely but if you go into that science

1960
01:05:55,029 --> 01:05:52,799
and like

1961
01:05:57,109 --> 01:05:55,039
it it's the invisible college thing i

1962
01:05:59,109 --> 01:05:57,119
mean these guys were doing this [\h__\h]

1963
01:06:01,190 --> 01:05:59,119
they weren't talking about it they were

1964
01:06:02,470 --> 01:06:01,200
doing it and they weren't experimenting

1965
01:06:04,630 --> 01:06:02,480
with it quote unquote

1966
01:06:05,829 --> 01:06:04,640
they were like finding russian subs

1967
01:06:08,870 --> 01:06:05,839
across the world

1968
01:06:11,029 --> 01:06:08,880
and sending that information to our

1969
01:06:12,309 --> 01:06:11,039
intelligence agencies and just in the

1970
01:06:14,630 --> 01:06:12,319
last five years

1971
01:06:15,349 --> 01:06:14,640
they've released another sixty thousand

1972
01:06:18,230 --> 01:06:15,359
pages

1973
01:06:19,190 --> 01:06:18,240
of documents from the remote viewing

1974
01:06:22,549 --> 01:06:19,200
program

1975
01:06:23,750 --> 01:06:22,559
that completely any any skepticism that

1976
01:06:26,069 --> 01:06:23,760
any would have

1977
01:06:27,109 --> 01:06:26,079
about the reality of that program is

1978
01:06:28,710 --> 01:06:27,119
just pure

1979
01:06:30,549 --> 01:06:28,720
bunk and it just shouldn't be taken

1980
01:06:31,430 --> 01:06:30,559
seriously and again go interview the

1981
01:06:32,950 --> 01:06:31,440
guys i have

1982
01:06:34,710 --> 01:06:32,960
the point of all that derrick i'll wrap

1983
01:06:38,230 --> 01:06:34,720
it up

1984
01:06:39,829 --> 01:06:38,240
these guys they weren't talk about a

1985
01:06:41,990 --> 01:06:39,839
materialist science you are

1986
01:06:43,109 --> 01:06:42,000
a product of your brain they were so far

1987
01:06:46,069 --> 01:06:43,119
past that they're

1988
01:06:47,630 --> 01:06:46,079
all their work with navy intelligence

1989
01:06:50,870 --> 01:06:47,640
and cia and all that

1990
01:06:52,390 --> 01:06:50,880
presupposed that consciousness extends

1991
01:06:54,470 --> 01:06:52,400
beyond the brain and that

1992
01:06:55,750 --> 01:06:54,480
has these extended realms that we can't

1993
01:06:58,150 --> 01:06:55,760
fully understand

1994
01:07:00,549 --> 01:06:58,160
and one of the first guys they did joe

1995
01:07:02,069 --> 01:07:00,559
mcmonicle who became their psychic spy

1996
01:07:04,069 --> 01:07:02,079
number one

1997
01:07:05,589 --> 01:07:04,079
he had a near-death experience and they

1998
01:07:07,589 --> 01:07:05,599
they kind of saw that

1999
01:07:08,870 --> 01:07:07,599
near-death experience and entering that

2000
01:07:10,630 --> 01:07:08,880
extended realm

2001
01:07:12,069 --> 01:07:10,640
might have something to do with this

2002
01:07:15,270 --> 01:07:12,079
extended consciousness

2003
01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:15,280
so all that stuff is out there and it

2004
01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:15,680
just

2005
01:07:19,589 --> 01:07:18,240
is there's this block that so many

2006
01:07:21,510 --> 01:07:19,599
people have been given to

2007
01:07:23,349 --> 01:07:21,520
don't go there and it's just kind of

2008
01:07:26,630 --> 01:07:23,359
frustrating for me that so many people

2009
01:07:28,549 --> 01:07:26,640
in the in the mythicist camp

2010
01:07:30,069 --> 01:07:28,559
if you will or are willing to explore

2011
01:07:31,990 --> 01:07:30,079
that in that way that i'm very

2012
01:07:34,950 --> 01:07:32,000
interested in for a bunch of reasons

2013
01:07:36,150 --> 01:07:34,960
kind of have this weird divide about

2014
01:07:38,309 --> 01:07:36,160
that

2015
01:07:39,750 --> 01:07:38,319
well there's a divide in every every

2016
01:07:41,589 --> 01:07:39,760
camp that i have that

2017
01:07:43,910 --> 01:07:41,599
there did the people who comment on my

2018
01:07:44,390 --> 01:07:43,920
channel it's almost like every person is

2019
01:07:46,069 --> 01:07:44,400
a pope

2020
01:07:47,910 --> 01:07:46,079
they all know the truth and everyone's

2021
01:07:50,470 --> 01:07:47,920
right and everyone else is wrong and

2022
01:07:52,870 --> 01:07:50,480
it's just the way the internet works um

2023
01:07:54,710 --> 01:07:52,880
i've obviously got some homework to do

2024
01:07:56,150 --> 01:07:54,720
because i'm not going to pretend to know

2025
01:07:56,870 --> 01:07:56,160
something that i haven't really delved

2026
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:56,880
into

2027
01:08:00,630 --> 01:07:58,799
so for me i'm gonna be looking this

2028
01:08:03,109 --> 01:08:00,640
stuff up i'd like if you wouldn't mind

2029
01:08:04,549 --> 01:08:03,119
emailing me some of this material to

2030
01:08:07,109 --> 01:08:04,559
look up and to go into

2031
01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:07,119
and what i will do i say this openly on

2032
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:08,160
my channel all the time

2033
01:08:12,150 --> 01:08:10,400
is i'm gonna look for things that poke

2034
01:08:15,510 --> 01:08:12,160
holes in any of this stuff

2035
01:08:17,510 --> 01:08:15,520
i'm gonna look for because if someone

2036
01:08:18,470 --> 01:08:17,520
says that they have these capabilities

2037
01:08:21,110 --> 01:08:18,480
and powers

2038
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:21,120
i'm i'm a big fan in trying to see is

2039
01:08:25,110 --> 01:08:22,640
that really the case you know

2040
01:08:26,870 --> 01:08:25,120
i want to know you know i like to poke

2041
01:08:27,749 --> 01:08:26,880
i'm not going to rest on just these

2042
01:08:29,669 --> 01:08:27,759
ideas that

2043
01:08:31,110 --> 01:08:29,679
you know we can remote view and things

2044
01:08:32,309 --> 01:08:31,120
like that i got to investigate that i'm

2045
01:08:33,349 --> 01:08:32,319
not going to act like i know because i'm

2046
01:08:34,870 --> 01:08:33,359
not going to be able to go out and say

2047
01:08:37,669 --> 01:08:34,880
oh that's not true

2048
01:08:39,189 --> 01:08:37,679
but i'm very skeptical i start out

2049
01:08:40,709 --> 01:08:39,199
skeptical i don't believe it just

2050
01:08:42,149 --> 01:08:40,719
because people say things

2051
01:08:44,550 --> 01:08:42,159
if i did that i'd believe everything

2052
01:08:46,870 --> 01:08:44,560
that's ever tossed at me because well uh

2053
01:08:47,829 --> 01:08:46,880
prove it wrong well i can't prove well

2054
01:08:50,149 --> 01:08:47,839
then it's true it's

2055
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:50,159
no i'm gonna start very skeptical and

2056
01:08:52,630 --> 01:08:51,839
work my way in based on what i

2057
01:08:54,550 --> 01:08:52,640
investigate

2058
01:08:56,709 --> 01:08:54,560
and i am honest when it comes to this

2059
01:08:57,189 --> 01:08:56,719
investigation i am truly trying to say

2060
01:09:00,950 --> 01:08:57,199
what

2061
01:09:02,470 --> 01:09:00,960
tell you this i've had a lot of

2062
01:09:05,189 --> 01:09:02,480
experiences

2063
01:09:07,269 --> 01:09:05,199
in my life as a christian and even

2064
01:09:10,630 --> 01:09:07,279
outside of being a christian

2065
01:09:11,829 --> 01:09:10,640
that um i tell myself is this really

2066
01:09:14,630 --> 01:09:11,839
something more

2067
01:09:16,149 --> 01:09:14,640
or could it be that the mind is a

2068
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:16,159
powerful thing and of course you say

2069
01:09:19,749 --> 01:09:17,279
it's bunk

2070
01:09:20,950 --> 01:09:19,759
the mind thing so what i'd like to do is

2071
01:09:24,470 --> 01:09:20,960
be

2072
01:09:27,269 --> 01:09:24,480
honest and say no comment

2073
01:09:28,390 --> 01:09:27,279
on those things and actually investigate

2074
01:09:30,630 --> 01:09:28,400
this because

2075
01:09:32,309 --> 01:09:30,640
i'd be a fool to stand here and say oh i

2076
01:09:34,630 --> 01:09:32,319
know i don't know

2077
01:09:35,669 --> 01:09:34,640
i'm gonna pretend to say i know there's

2078
01:09:37,269 --> 01:09:35,679
a lot that you've

2079
01:09:38,789 --> 01:09:37,279
looked into that i haven't but one of

2080
01:09:40,789 --> 01:09:38,799
the biggest things is

2081
01:09:43,349 --> 01:09:40,799
i don't know if i'll have the time right

2082
01:09:45,910 --> 01:09:43,359
now to go into these particular topics

2083
01:09:46,870 --> 01:09:45,920
with the 30 40 interviews i have coming

2084
01:09:48,950 --> 01:09:46,880
up in the books that i have to read

2085
01:09:50,870 --> 01:09:48,960
preparing but

2086
01:09:52,070 --> 01:09:50,880
i it seems like this is important like

2087
01:09:53,510 --> 01:09:52,080
it's something i'm going to have to

2088
01:09:55,270 --> 01:09:53,520
encounter at some point and i might as

2089
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:55,280
well get my head wrapped around it and

2090
01:10:01,270 --> 01:09:58,080
figure it out you know what i mean

2091
01:10:03,990 --> 01:10:01,280
yeah no doubt and you you need to follow

2092
01:10:05,430 --> 01:10:04,000
your own kind of sense i don't have any

2093
01:10:07,990 --> 01:10:05,440
kind of uh

2094
01:10:09,430 --> 01:10:08,000
hidden agenda here because i've listened

2095
01:10:12,310 --> 01:10:09,440
to your shows

2096
01:10:14,070 --> 01:10:12,320
i've profited from them i have a couple

2097
01:10:17,750 --> 01:10:14,080
interviews set up with

2098
01:10:20,950 --> 01:10:17,760
you know people that i i came across

2099
01:10:22,470 --> 01:10:20,960
on your show so i'm in this process

2100
01:10:24,229 --> 01:10:22,480
because of exactly the reason that i

2101
01:10:27,590 --> 01:10:24,239
told you i i think that the

2102
01:10:30,950 --> 01:10:27,600
the roman psyop is

2103
01:10:33,910 --> 01:10:30,960
important to really crack the code

2104
01:10:35,830 --> 01:10:33,920
on the christian thing once and for all

2105
01:10:38,229 --> 01:10:35,840
and to better understand

2106
01:10:38,950 --> 01:10:38,239
the kind of dual mind control that's

2107
01:10:42,149 --> 01:10:38,960
going on

2108
01:10:43,350 --> 01:10:42,159
where you know because the dual mind

2109
01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:43,360
control thing to me

2110
01:10:47,510 --> 01:10:45,840
it's easy really to see the christian

2111
01:10:50,229 --> 01:10:47,520
mind control thing

2112
01:10:51,910 --> 01:10:50,239
and to see the especially when we start

2113
01:10:54,149 --> 01:10:51,920
in the present day

2114
01:10:55,750 --> 01:10:54,159
and you see what they do to the kids in

2115
01:10:57,430 --> 01:10:55,760
the catholic church what they do to the

2116
01:10:59,590 --> 01:10:57,440
mormons or what they do

2117
01:11:00,550 --> 01:10:59,600
you know the hightower folks you've had

2118
01:11:02,630 --> 01:11:00,560
on so

2119
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:02,640
i mean that's just clearly mind control

2120
01:11:05,590 --> 01:11:04,080
and there's no doubt about that

2121
01:11:07,510 --> 01:11:05,600
so then you just trace it back and go

2122
01:11:09,270 --> 01:11:07,520
how far back does that go

2123
01:11:11,030 --> 01:11:09,280
i would suggest that there's another

2124
01:11:12,870 --> 01:11:11,040
part of mind control game on the other

2125
01:11:14,790 --> 01:11:12,880
side it's in the science camp

2126
01:11:16,870 --> 01:11:14,800
and it's convincing you that you are

2127
01:11:17,669 --> 01:11:16,880
this biological robot and meaningless

2128
01:11:20,870 --> 01:11:17,679
universe

2129
01:11:23,669 --> 01:11:20,880
your life is meaningless because that is

2130
01:11:25,990 --> 01:11:23,679
the message that science tells you

2131
01:11:27,350 --> 01:11:26,000
you are meaningless because there is no

2132
01:11:29,990 --> 01:11:27,360
meaning anywhere

2133
01:11:30,550 --> 01:11:30,000
in the universe and when you know you

2134
01:11:34,470 --> 01:11:30,560
look at

2135
01:11:36,630 --> 01:11:34,480
your your kids there is no real love

2136
01:11:38,950 --> 01:11:36,640
it's just a biological reaction

2137
01:11:39,669 --> 01:11:38,960
there is no moral imperative there is no

2138
01:11:42,390 --> 01:11:39,679
good or bad

2139
01:11:43,830 --> 01:11:42,400
so they're they're taking a very extreme

2140
01:11:44,709 --> 01:11:43,840
position too that i think a lot of

2141
01:11:47,430 --> 01:11:44,719
people

2142
01:11:48,630 --> 01:11:47,440
don't realize they're kind of buying

2143
01:11:51,830 --> 01:11:48,640
into

2144
01:11:54,310 --> 01:11:51,840
when they go down that route so yeah i i

2145
01:11:56,709 --> 01:11:54,320
even though i'm definitely tiptoeing on

2146
01:11:59,110 --> 01:11:56,719
that route i don't conclude those things

2147
01:12:00,709 --> 01:11:59,120
from my own experience so if we

2148
01:12:02,390 --> 01:12:00,719
scientifically were able to say

2149
01:12:03,910 --> 01:12:02,400
these things are natural i look at the

2150
01:12:06,229 --> 01:12:03,920
animal kingdom and i see that

2151
01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:06,239
how animals care for their own and and

2152
01:12:08,950 --> 01:12:06,960
such

2153
01:12:11,350 --> 01:12:08,960
um i get what you're saying the

2154
01:12:13,189 --> 01:12:11,360
overarching is there a destiny purpose

2155
01:12:14,310 --> 01:12:13,199
for the universe is something out there

2156
01:12:16,390 --> 01:12:14,320
that made it and

2157
01:12:18,229 --> 01:12:16,400
had intention and said here's the

2158
01:12:19,590 --> 01:12:18,239
purpose there's meaning to this i'm

2159
01:12:21,030 --> 01:12:19,600
giving meaning to this whether it's a

2160
01:12:24,550 --> 01:12:21,040
being whether it's all

2161
01:12:26,390 --> 01:12:24,560
in a kind of a uh pantheistic type thing

2162
01:12:27,830 --> 01:12:26,400
where we're all within this divine we're

2163
01:12:29,430 --> 01:12:27,840
all one we're all part of it kind of

2164
01:12:32,790 --> 01:12:29,440
like joe rogan talks about

2165
01:12:34,390 --> 01:12:32,800
um i still think that we give ourselves

2166
01:12:36,709 --> 01:12:34,400
meaning in many respects and

2167
01:12:37,750 --> 01:12:36,719
kind of what we were born with so one

2168
01:12:40,790 --> 01:12:37,760
might say well that

2169
01:12:43,270 --> 01:12:40,800
that meaning you got came from this

2170
01:12:45,030 --> 01:12:43,280
or that meaning was from this higher

2171
01:12:47,189 --> 01:12:45,040
consciousness of some sort

2172
01:12:48,470 --> 01:12:47,199
and i understand that why that mindset

2173
01:12:50,310 --> 01:12:48,480
is it's kind of like saying we have

2174
01:12:51,669 --> 01:12:50,320
minds but since we have minds and you

2175
01:12:54,229 --> 01:12:51,679
and me both have a mind

2176
01:12:55,590 --> 01:12:54,239
there must be a mind above this mind and

2177
01:12:58,229 --> 01:12:55,600
it's deducing

2178
01:13:00,070 --> 01:12:58,239
agency in that area so this is why i'm

2179
01:13:02,310 --> 01:13:00,080
entertaining people like shermer

2180
01:13:04,070 --> 01:13:02,320
i'm entertaining the cosmologist and

2181
01:13:06,149 --> 01:13:04,080
wondering can a universe come from

2182
01:13:08,630 --> 01:13:06,159
nothing and what do they mean by nothing

2183
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:08,640
you know i'm entertaining all of those

2184
01:13:13,189 --> 01:13:10,159
natural views

2185
01:13:14,470 --> 01:13:13,199
to test and see hey does this actually

2186
01:13:17,030 --> 01:13:14,480
answer these questions

2187
01:13:17,990 --> 01:13:17,040
now philosophically or like giving

2188
01:13:20,550 --> 01:13:18,000
meaning and purpose

2189
01:13:22,229 --> 01:13:20,560
and stuff i mean science isn't going to

2190
01:13:23,750 --> 01:13:22,239
necessarily give you those answers i

2191
01:13:24,390 --> 01:13:23,760
think those are subjective things that

2192
01:13:26,709 --> 01:13:24,400
we can

2193
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:26,719
put on like in some countries it was

2194
01:13:30,070 --> 01:13:28,080
okay to murder a human or

2195
01:13:31,910 --> 01:13:30,080
to sacrifice humans to god it was

2196
01:13:32,550 --> 01:13:31,920
totally okay probably for the jews to do

2197
01:13:35,350 --> 01:13:32,560
that before

2198
01:13:37,030 --> 01:13:35,360
before they canonized their text at some

2199
01:13:38,229 --> 01:13:37,040
point human sacrifice was probably part

2200
01:13:40,550 --> 01:13:38,239
of their system

2201
01:13:42,149 --> 01:13:40,560
i say that because morally they thought

2202
01:13:44,870 --> 01:13:42,159
it was okay at some point

2203
01:13:46,630 --> 01:13:44,880
and eventually the morals evolve and i

2204
01:13:48,470 --> 01:13:46,640
think that has a lot to do with nature

2205
01:13:50,470 --> 01:13:48,480
i'm looking at this i don't say that

2206
01:13:52,070 --> 01:13:50,480
with certainty i'm saying

2207
01:13:53,750 --> 01:13:52,080
what i'm trying to do is explore a

2208
01:13:54,149 --> 01:13:53,760
natural phenomenon to explain these

2209
01:13:56,070 --> 01:13:54,159
things

2210
01:13:57,270 --> 01:13:56,080
and i might run into a dead end i mean

2211
01:13:59,110 --> 01:13:57,280
i'm sure i've ran into an

2212
01:14:00,470 --> 01:13:59,120
epistemological dead end if we go back

2213
01:14:03,510 --> 01:14:00,480
to the big bang it's like

2214
01:14:06,790 --> 01:14:03,520
you can't go behind the the

2215
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:06,800
universe starting and so um we're all

2216
01:14:10,390 --> 01:14:08,640
clueless on

2217
01:14:12,149 --> 01:14:10,400
the behind now some might say they have

2218
01:14:13,110 --> 01:14:12,159
some secret special revelation or

2219
01:14:17,189 --> 01:14:13,120
knowledge

2220
01:14:19,189 --> 01:14:17,199
i'm i'm really approaching this skeptico

2221
01:14:21,350 --> 01:14:19,199
skeptically you know i'm i'm coming at

2222
01:14:22,790 --> 01:14:21,360
this and saying look

2223
01:14:24,229 --> 01:14:22,800
but not so skeptical that i'm not

2224
01:14:25,830 --> 01:14:24,239
considering the idea so that's why i

2225
01:14:26,390 --> 01:14:25,840
asked you for names that's why i asked

2226
01:14:27,910 --> 01:14:26,400
you for

2227
01:14:29,430 --> 01:14:27,920
ideas and while you were writing or you

2228
01:14:30,950 --> 01:14:29,440
were saying certain things i was writing

2229
01:14:32,310 --> 01:14:30,960
certain things down because i am going

2230
01:14:34,790 --> 01:14:32,320
to look into these things

2231
01:14:36,070 --> 01:14:34,800
and i do want to see is there a way that

2232
01:14:39,189 --> 01:14:36,080
these things are true

2233
01:14:40,950 --> 01:14:39,199
uh are these really happening the coin

2234
01:14:42,709 --> 01:14:40,960
idea that the romans came over to

2235
01:14:45,510 --> 01:14:42,719
america possible

2236
01:14:47,270 --> 01:14:45,520
it's also possible vikings who conquered

2237
01:14:48,310 --> 01:14:47,280
many of the regions in rome and came in

2238
01:14:50,149 --> 01:14:48,320
these outsiders

2239
01:14:52,790 --> 01:14:50,159
also took treasures that they defeated

2240
01:14:55,430 --> 01:14:52,800
from rome second century

2241
01:14:56,310 --> 01:14:55,440
i mean the coins still exist so who

2242
01:14:57,750 --> 01:14:56,320
knows if it

2243
01:14:59,350 --> 01:14:57,760
ends up in a treasury in the fourth

2244
01:15:01,270 --> 01:14:59,360
fifth century when the collapse of rome

2245
01:15:03,270 --> 01:15:01,280
happens and then these vikings come over

2246
01:15:04,950 --> 01:15:03,280
you know i you know what i'm saying

2247
01:15:06,870 --> 01:15:04,960
right but then you then you'd expect to

2248
01:15:08,550 --> 01:15:06,880
find and this isn't my theory it's his

2249
01:15:10,470 --> 01:15:08,560
but then you'd expect to find a mixture

2250
01:15:12,390 --> 01:15:10,480
of coins you'd expect to find

2251
01:15:14,390 --> 01:15:12,400
second century third century fourth

2252
01:15:15,590 --> 01:15:14,400
fourth century you wouldn't just see

2253
01:15:17,910 --> 01:15:15,600
second century that's that's an

2254
01:15:19,590 --> 01:15:17,920
interesting point well

2255
01:15:21,669 --> 01:15:19,600
so you know and back to your other thing

2256
01:15:24,070 --> 01:15:21,679
i really like how you keep going back

2257
01:15:25,750 --> 01:15:24,080
on several times to the flat earth thing

2258
01:15:28,630 --> 01:15:25,760
because to me

2259
01:15:29,590 --> 01:15:28,640
that's i i just did an interview a guy

2260
01:15:31,270 --> 01:15:29,600
had me on his show

2261
01:15:32,470 --> 01:15:31,280
and uh he was a nice enough guy and we

2262
01:15:34,149 --> 01:15:32,480
agreed on a lot of stuff and then he

2263
01:15:35,030 --> 01:15:34,159
started pedaling the flat earth thing

2264
01:15:36,950 --> 01:15:35,040
you know

2265
01:15:38,390 --> 01:15:36,960
and he tried to he tried to engage me in

2266
01:15:40,070 --> 01:15:38,400
some kind of debate and he was really

2267
01:15:42,390 --> 01:15:40,080
getting frustrated he's like

2268
01:15:44,950 --> 01:15:42,400
you haven't you know you haven't looked

2269
01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:44,960
into it you haven't looked into it

2270
01:15:49,189 --> 01:15:47,440
and i was like dude i looked into it for

2271
01:15:51,030 --> 01:15:49,199
like 30 seconds that's all you have to

2272
01:15:55,830 --> 01:15:51,040
look into it for you don't

2273
01:15:57,830 --> 01:15:55,840
for real and and i sometimes feel like

2274
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,840
i sometimes feel like the same thing

2275
01:16:01,110 --> 01:15:59,520
what's that you're gonna catch some [\h__\h]

2276
01:16:03,830 --> 01:16:01,120
for saying that by the way

2277
01:16:05,189 --> 01:16:03,840
with your group no no someone in the

2278
01:16:06,310 --> 01:16:05,199
crowd is gonna come across this video

2279
01:16:08,229 --> 01:16:06,320
and they're going to be like yeah you

2280
01:16:08,790 --> 01:16:08,239
haven't checked 30 seconds that's not

2281
01:16:10,229 --> 01:16:08,800
enough

2282
01:16:12,870 --> 01:16:10,239
you know how people are man i'm just

2283
01:16:16,470 --> 01:16:12,880
saying someone will come across

2284
01:16:20,070 --> 01:16:16,480
i'd say the same thing about you know

2285
01:16:21,669 --> 01:16:20,080
like dude consciousness if you think

2286
01:16:22,149 --> 01:16:21,679
consciousness is an epiphenomenon of the

2287
01:16:25,189 --> 01:16:22,159
brain

2288
01:16:27,590 --> 01:16:25,199
it's not cl is clear-cut and it's a

2289
01:16:28,950 --> 01:16:27,600
poor comparison but like when people

2290
01:16:32,149 --> 01:16:28,960
when people tell me

2291
01:16:34,229 --> 01:16:32,159
give me the references i'm like [\h__\h]

2292
01:16:36,310 --> 01:16:34,239
start with max planck just

2293
01:16:37,990 --> 01:16:36,320
google who max plank is and he came up

2294
01:16:40,470 --> 01:16:38,000
with the game

2295
01:16:41,270 --> 01:16:40,480
so well you know it's like he's one of

2296
01:16:43,830 --> 01:16:41,280
the

2297
01:16:46,070 --> 01:16:43,840
kind of leading or who uh you know niels

2298
01:16:47,990 --> 01:16:46,080
bohr have you ever heard of niels bohr

2299
01:16:50,070 --> 01:16:48,000
i mean these are like the fundamental

2300
01:16:52,070 --> 01:16:50,080
physicists of

2301
01:16:54,070 --> 01:16:52,080
quantum physics and they're the party

2302
01:16:55,750 --> 01:16:54,080
they're the partners of uh you know

2303
01:16:57,030 --> 01:16:55,760
partners in crime with uh albert

2304
01:16:58,229 --> 01:16:57,040
einstein i shouldn't said partners in

2305
01:16:58,790 --> 01:16:58,239
crime it's gonna lead people the wrong

2306
01:17:00,470 --> 01:16:58,800
way

2307
01:17:02,470 --> 01:17:00,480
so you start from there and you can go

2308
01:17:03,270 --> 01:17:02,480
to dean raiden but the the part that

2309
01:17:04,709 --> 01:17:03,280
interests me

2310
01:17:07,189 --> 01:17:04,719
because i do want to try and get it back

2311
01:17:10,790 --> 01:17:07,199
we've taken off your time but

2312
01:17:13,910 --> 01:17:10,800
see to me the interesting part is that

2313
01:17:16,470 --> 01:17:13,920
if you understand the social engineering

2314
01:17:16,950 --> 01:17:16,480
as a potential part that could be in

2315
01:17:19,110 --> 01:17:16,960
play

2316
01:17:20,390 --> 01:17:19,120
i am fine to go toe-to-toe with someone

2317
01:17:22,709 --> 01:17:20,400
who says like you did i

2318
01:17:23,590 --> 01:17:22,719
i love the thought process i respect it

2319
01:17:25,990 --> 01:17:23,600
you know you were like

2320
01:17:27,430 --> 01:17:26,000
hey maybe josephus was this and then i

2321
01:17:29,910 --> 01:17:27,440
put all this stuff down you go

2322
01:17:32,790 --> 01:17:29,920
okay that's good too maybe it was this

2323
01:17:34,870 --> 01:17:32,800
maybe it was some combination of both

2324
01:17:36,950 --> 01:17:34,880
as long as we're willing to go there and

2325
01:17:38,070 --> 01:17:36,960
as long as this social engineering part

2326
01:17:39,830 --> 01:17:38,080
is on the table

2327
01:17:41,590 --> 01:17:39,840
then i'm down with it so i look at

2328
01:17:44,470 --> 01:17:41,600
science and i say

2329
01:17:46,229 --> 01:17:44,480
pre-existing the the pre-existing social

2330
01:17:47,990 --> 01:17:46,239
engineering position would be

2331
01:17:50,310 --> 01:17:48,000
i want you to be the same way that

2332
01:17:52,709 --> 01:17:50,320
religion wants you to be afraid

2333
01:17:53,830 --> 01:17:52,719
it wants you to feel guilty it wants you

2334
01:17:56,950 --> 01:17:53,840
to be

2335
01:17:58,070 --> 01:17:56,960
uh uh controllable that's what religion

2336
01:18:00,070 --> 01:17:58,080
wants out of you

2337
01:18:01,510 --> 01:18:00,080
because you're just more susceptible to

2338
01:18:03,910 --> 01:18:01,520
what they're saying

2339
01:18:05,110 --> 01:18:03,920
science wants the same thing science

2340
01:18:07,669 --> 01:18:05,120
wants you to think

2341
01:18:09,270 --> 01:18:07,679
that you are that biological robot that

2342
01:18:10,310 --> 01:18:09,280
you know there is no really no meaning

2343
01:18:11,750 --> 01:18:10,320
in the universe or

2344
01:18:14,149 --> 01:18:11,760
if you want to believe sam harris kind

2345
01:18:14,950 --> 01:18:14,159
of it's a social construct it's whatever

2346
01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:14,960
we make

2347
01:18:18,310 --> 01:18:17,520
well consider the alternative that there

2348
01:18:21,669 --> 01:18:18,320
is

2349
01:18:24,550 --> 01:18:21,679
that you are somehow more

2350
01:18:26,630 --> 01:18:24,560
that your consciousness is somehow more

2351
01:18:27,030 --> 01:18:26,640
and don't go any further don't go don't

2352
01:18:29,750 --> 01:18:27,040
start

2353
01:18:30,229 --> 01:18:29,760
selling me god or anything like that

2354
01:18:34,310 --> 01:18:30,239
just

2355
01:18:36,630 --> 01:18:34,320
science is oh you can't be anything more

2356
01:18:38,790 --> 01:18:36,640
you're just a biological robot

2357
01:18:39,669 --> 01:18:38,800
just go follow the data to the next okay

2358
01:18:42,630 --> 01:18:39,679
i'm more

2359
01:18:43,350 --> 01:18:42,640
then where does that go so my question

2360
01:18:45,189 --> 01:18:43,360
would be

2361
01:18:46,870 --> 01:18:45,199
um well first i'd like to just make a

2362
01:18:47,830 --> 01:18:46,880
statement i don't feel like that's the

2363
01:18:49,990 --> 01:18:47,840
pressure

2364
01:18:51,350 --> 01:18:50,000
of the guys that i'm researching on this

2365
01:18:52,870 --> 01:18:51,360
i feel like what they're trying to do

2366
01:18:54,390 --> 01:18:52,880
like when i read the believing brain by

2367
01:18:56,470 --> 01:18:54,400
michael shermer and i listen to him

2368
01:18:58,630 --> 01:18:56,480
explain agency patternicity

2369
01:19:00,470 --> 01:18:58,640
try to explain what's going on why do we

2370
01:19:03,110 --> 01:19:00,480
believe anything at all like

2371
01:19:05,189 --> 01:19:03,120
what would be the evolutionary product

2372
01:19:05,990 --> 01:19:05,199
for why someone would want to trust in

2373
01:19:08,229 --> 01:19:06,000
things and

2374
01:19:09,669 --> 01:19:08,239
and how does that help us survive why

2375
01:19:10,310 --> 01:19:09,679
people believe weird things kind of

2376
01:19:13,430 --> 01:19:10,320
thing

2377
01:19:14,950 --> 01:19:13,440
like the mechanism that causes us to

2378
01:19:17,990 --> 01:19:14,960
believe i want to know

2379
01:19:20,390 --> 01:19:18,000
he was i gotta say michael was very very

2380
01:19:21,189 --> 01:19:20,400
kind uh in tiptoe in that book like he

2381
01:19:24,630 --> 01:19:21,199
didn't

2382
01:19:27,750 --> 01:19:24,640
out hard swinging and like

2383
01:19:28,149 --> 01:19:27,760
bashing he was like i'm very cautious to

2384
01:19:30,550 --> 01:19:28,159
buy

2385
01:19:31,830 --> 01:19:30,560
deepak chopra or to consider what these

2386
01:19:34,709 --> 01:19:31,840
guys are saying as fact

2387
01:19:35,270 --> 01:19:34,719
uh i am looking for empirical data to

2388
01:19:37,110 --> 01:19:35,280
try and

2389
01:19:39,189 --> 01:19:37,120
support this idea and then there might

2390
01:19:40,550 --> 01:19:39,199
be that leap there's kind of that leap

2391
01:19:43,270 --> 01:19:40,560
of faith where they will go

2392
01:19:44,470 --> 01:19:43,280
look god of the gaps i get it but when

2393
01:19:45,990 --> 01:19:44,480
we have like

2394
01:19:47,750 --> 01:19:46,000
how do i put this i try to describe this

2395
01:19:50,149 --> 01:19:47,760
with god in the bible

2396
01:19:51,910 --> 01:19:50,159
when we know that the volcano erupted

2397
01:19:53,590 --> 01:19:51,920
because yahweh was mad at israel

2398
01:19:55,830 --> 01:19:53,600
earthquakes happen and floods happen

2399
01:19:57,270 --> 01:19:55,840
because god's angry homosexuality

2400
01:19:58,950 --> 01:19:57,280
happening in the land is the cause of

2401
01:20:00,709 --> 01:19:58,960
the flood and this this that like all

2402
01:20:01,110 --> 01:20:00,719
these things that we always attribute to

2403
01:20:04,550 --> 01:20:01,120
god

2404
01:20:06,470 --> 01:20:04,560
we have a

2405
01:20:07,750 --> 01:20:06,480
natural phenomena we can explain for the

2406
01:20:09,510 --> 01:20:07,760
reasonings of why

2407
01:20:10,790 --> 01:20:09,520
tectonic plates whatever might be that

2408
01:20:13,590 --> 01:20:10,800
causes some of these things

2409
01:20:15,189 --> 01:20:13,600
to naturally happen one could still say

2410
01:20:16,870 --> 01:20:15,199
well the reason all those natural

2411
01:20:18,870 --> 01:20:16,880
phenomena occurred is because the

2412
01:20:21,510 --> 01:20:18,880
consciousness deity god whatever

2413
01:20:22,550 --> 01:20:21,520
is the one doing it but it starts to

2414
01:20:24,870 --> 01:20:22,560
make god become

2415
01:20:26,950 --> 01:20:24,880
smaller and less of a requirement for

2416
01:20:28,870 --> 01:20:26,960
this deity that people are posing

2417
01:20:30,709 --> 01:20:28,880
and more likely that hey we can actually

2418
01:20:31,350 --> 01:20:30,719
explain this this just happens it's

2419
01:20:33,510 --> 01:20:31,360
common

2420
01:20:35,030 --> 01:20:33,520
and we drive purpose into those things

2421
01:20:36,470 --> 01:20:35,040
that aren't necessarily there

2422
01:20:38,390 --> 01:20:36,480
for example in the ancient world the

2423
01:20:42,470 --> 01:20:38,400
ancients would look up to the star

2424
01:20:44,149 --> 01:20:42,480
venus and say venus caused life on earth

2425
01:20:45,990 --> 01:20:44,159
because every time venus would come up

2426
01:20:48,709 --> 01:20:46,000
in the sky during the summer

2427
01:20:50,709 --> 01:20:48,719
times looking at astrology then green

2428
01:20:52,070 --> 01:20:50,719
would come we'd start getting plants and

2429
01:20:53,750 --> 01:20:52,080
animals would start

2430
01:20:55,830 --> 01:20:53,760
mating and next thing you know you see

2431
01:20:58,870 --> 01:20:55,840
the earth turns green and life comes

2432
01:21:00,790 --> 01:20:58,880
so where's life come from venus venus

2433
01:21:01,590 --> 01:21:00,800
brings life it's the life-giving star or

2434
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:01,600
whatever

2435
01:21:06,470 --> 01:21:04,400
well we gave purpose to that that didn't

2436
01:21:09,270 --> 01:21:06,480
actually have that purpose

2437
01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:09,280
so i'm looking for a natural phenomena

2438
01:21:13,430 --> 01:21:09,760
why

2439
01:21:16,229 --> 01:21:13,440
starting with what

2440
01:21:17,189 --> 01:21:16,239
i can test and what seems most plausible

2441
01:21:19,270 --> 01:21:17,199
to me

2442
01:21:21,030 --> 01:21:19,280
based on proving the nine times out of

2443
01:21:21,430 --> 01:21:21,040
ten when i thought it was yahweh or god

2444
01:21:23,030 --> 01:21:21,440
or

2445
01:21:24,790 --> 01:21:23,040
it was some being that did it the

2446
01:21:27,030 --> 01:21:24,800
earthquake the water floods

2447
01:21:28,390 --> 01:21:27,040
diseases famines the way nature is

2448
01:21:29,910 --> 01:21:28,400
consuming one another

2449
01:21:31,590 --> 01:21:29,920
and just the destruction that i see

2450
01:21:33,669 --> 01:21:31,600
constantly that happens in life

2451
01:21:35,270 --> 01:21:33,679
i i go well damn which makes better

2452
01:21:36,470 --> 01:21:35,280
sense that a consciousness actually

2453
01:21:38,709 --> 01:21:36,480
created this and that

2454
01:21:39,910 --> 01:21:38,719
we constantly viciously run into these

2455
01:21:41,750 --> 01:21:39,920
things or

2456
01:21:43,430 --> 01:21:41,760
a natural world view and so that's why

2457
01:21:44,550 --> 01:21:43,440
i'm considering looking into the natural

2458
01:21:46,709 --> 01:21:44,560
world view

2459
01:21:48,390 --> 01:21:46,719
and saying does this answer these

2460
01:21:49,750 --> 01:21:48,400
questions there are some things we don't

2461
01:21:51,590 --> 01:21:49,760
have answers for

2462
01:21:53,270 --> 01:21:51,600
i get that but i'm considering this this

2463
01:21:54,550 --> 01:21:53,280
is what i'm doing

2464
01:21:56,149 --> 01:21:54,560
okay fair enough and we've kind of

2465
01:21:57,189 --> 01:21:56,159
hammered on this a lot but i can't

2466
01:22:00,390 --> 01:21:57,199
resist

2467
01:22:01,590 --> 01:22:00,400
really an opening for me to go into

2468
01:22:03,830 --> 01:22:01,600
another rant on this

2469
01:22:05,590 --> 01:22:03,840
certain extent but here here's my thing

2470
01:22:08,310 --> 01:22:05,600
is that

2471
01:22:09,189 --> 01:22:08,320
you know where you're coming from which

2472
01:22:10,629 --> 01:22:09,199
is

2473
01:22:12,870 --> 01:22:10,639
like you're going a lot further than

2474
01:22:13,430 --> 01:22:12,880
most people are willing to go just in

2475
01:22:16,790 --> 01:22:13,440
your whole

2476
01:22:19,270 --> 01:22:16,800
you know

2477
01:22:21,350 --> 01:22:19,280
what what you described to me is is mind

2478
01:22:23,510 --> 01:22:21,360
controlled you were mind controlled

2479
01:22:24,950 --> 01:22:23,520
you were drawn into this christian cult

2480
01:22:27,350 --> 01:22:24,960
in a way that is

2481
01:22:28,709 --> 01:22:27,360
extremely traumatic and i get it because

2482
01:22:30,390 --> 01:22:28,719
i feel like i was

2483
01:22:32,629 --> 01:22:30,400
without even having the trauma of the

2484
01:22:34,390 --> 01:22:32,639
born again thing i was just a

2485
01:22:36,149 --> 01:22:34,400
four and a five-year-old who had to you

2486
01:22:37,750 --> 01:22:36,159
know go kiss that guy's hand and

2487
01:22:40,229 --> 01:22:37,760
look at all those statues in the church

2488
01:22:40,950 --> 01:22:40,239
i think that is extremely extremely

2489
01:22:43,350 --> 01:22:40,960
powerful

2490
01:22:44,870 --> 01:22:43,360
at a very very deep psychological level

2491
01:22:46,790 --> 01:22:44,880
that was programming to me

2492
01:22:48,550 --> 01:22:46,800
that made it very hard for me to say i'm

2493
01:22:50,790 --> 01:22:48,560
not a christian

2494
01:22:52,310 --> 01:22:50,800
i don't take that lightly i think that's

2495
01:22:54,950 --> 01:22:52,320
very serious

2496
01:22:56,470 --> 01:22:54,960
it makes you into a slave like yes

2497
01:22:57,990 --> 01:22:56,480
nietzsche was right

2498
01:22:59,590 --> 01:22:58,000
yes and i agree with that so if we're

2499
01:23:00,550 --> 01:22:59,600
talking about the program before we end

2500
01:23:02,229 --> 01:23:00,560
this program

2501
01:23:04,470 --> 01:23:02,239
i am in agreement with you that the

2502
01:23:08,310 --> 01:23:04,480
philosophy of these religions

2503
01:23:11,430 --> 01:23:08,320
are obviously used by leadership

2504
01:23:13,910 --> 01:23:11,440
governments everything even to this day

2505
01:23:15,750 --> 01:23:13,920
in order to keep slaves this is slavery

2506
01:23:16,550 --> 01:23:15,760
it's slavery it's been slavery the new

2507
01:23:19,110 --> 01:23:16,560
testament

2508
01:23:21,270 --> 01:23:19,120
paul was a slave of christ the same

2509
01:23:22,310 --> 01:23:21,280
institution of slavery just has adopted

2510
01:23:23,830 --> 01:23:22,320
a new concept

2511
01:23:25,910 --> 01:23:23,840
and it's been pushed into the religious

2512
01:23:26,790 --> 01:23:25,920
world yeah we may not have chattel

2513
01:23:29,990 --> 01:23:26,800
slavery as

2514
01:23:31,270 --> 01:23:30,000
a known phenomena but religious slavery

2515
01:23:33,830 --> 01:23:31,280
is a thing of the mind

2516
01:23:35,830 --> 01:23:33,840
which to me is just as powerful i'd me

2517
01:23:38,390 --> 01:23:35,840
and my wife get in arguments bro

2518
01:23:39,910 --> 01:23:38,400
and i hate it i'd rather her slap me or

2519
01:23:41,510 --> 01:23:39,920
punch me in the face

2520
01:23:43,189 --> 01:23:41,520
than sit there and talk to me and hurt

2521
01:23:43,910 --> 01:23:43,199
me in deeper levels like that i've told

2522
01:23:46,070 --> 01:23:43,920
her this

2523
01:23:47,990 --> 01:23:46,080
so you know it's just the reality that i

2524
01:23:50,070 --> 01:23:48,000
think we're all trying to free people

2525
01:23:52,070 --> 01:23:50,080
from even though like me and you have

2526
01:23:54,229 --> 01:23:52,080
different epistemologies and stuff like

2527
01:23:56,229 --> 01:23:54,239
we want people to wake up and realize

2528
01:23:58,950 --> 01:23:56,239
think for yourself

2529
01:23:59,510 --> 01:23:58,960
don't stay stuck me and you we may not

2530
01:24:01,110 --> 01:23:59,520
see all

2531
01:24:02,870 --> 01:24:01,120
i'd eye on many things i still got a lot

2532
01:24:03,990 --> 01:24:02,880
to learn by the way i'm not even acting

2533
01:24:06,950 --> 01:24:04,000
like i know but

2534
01:24:08,709 --> 01:24:06,960
we agree that this is harmful the stuff

2535
01:24:09,510 --> 01:24:08,719
that we've been taught this religious

2536
01:24:13,830 --> 01:24:09,520
system

2537
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:13,840
is not helpful and so i take it

2538
01:24:17,430 --> 01:24:16,400
so and where i was going with that is

2539
01:24:21,030 --> 01:24:17,440
twofold one

2540
01:24:24,229 --> 01:24:21,040
i i honestly truly respect

2541
01:24:25,350 --> 01:24:24,239
your process here you're digging you're

2542
01:24:29,669 --> 01:24:25,360
wanting to know

2543
01:24:32,510 --> 01:24:29,679
different angles as a way of

2544
01:24:33,750 --> 01:24:32,520
doing that as my friend calls it

2545
01:24:37,270 --> 01:24:33,760
unindoctrination

2546
01:24:40,390 --> 01:24:37,280
you know i like his approach of

2547
01:24:43,990 --> 01:24:40,400
jesus was an mk ultra murder victim

2548
01:24:45,750 --> 01:24:44,000
very [\h__\h] christmas because i like

2549
01:24:47,189 --> 01:24:45,760
not having to tiptoe around it but

2550
01:24:48,709 --> 01:24:47,199
you're talking to a guy who tiptoed

2551
01:24:50,470 --> 01:24:48,719
around the consciousness thing

2552
01:24:52,709 --> 01:24:50,480
for five years and interviewed you know

2553
01:24:55,830 --> 01:24:52,719
200 people before i saw that

2554
01:24:58,149 --> 01:24:55,840
for for what it is so i i totally uh

2555
01:24:59,270 --> 01:24:58,159
respect that and respect where you're

2556
01:25:02,310 --> 01:24:59,280
coming from

2557
01:25:04,790 --> 01:25:02,320
i just think that

2558
01:25:06,870 --> 01:25:04,800
you our community if i can be part of

2559
01:25:10,709 --> 01:25:06,880
your community here for a minute

2560
01:25:14,310 --> 01:25:10,719
needs to be more willing to truly

2561
01:25:18,149 --> 01:25:14,320
dive into the extent to which this

2562
01:25:18,790 --> 01:25:18,159
mind control aspect is really really at

2563
01:25:21,030 --> 01:25:18,800
play

2564
01:25:22,790 --> 01:25:21,040
because it's easy for us to point to

2565
01:25:25,189 --> 01:25:22,800
other groups and point to those

2566
01:25:26,950 --> 01:25:25,199
[\h__\h] crazy scientologists and say oh

2567
01:25:28,950 --> 01:25:26,960
my god that's mind control

2568
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:28,960
or to point to some cult and say that's

2569
01:25:32,470 --> 01:25:30,480
not that's mind control

2570
01:25:34,229 --> 01:25:32,480
and not to own my interview with mike

2571
01:25:35,990 --> 01:25:34,239
render did you see what i said to him

2572
01:25:37,430 --> 01:25:36,000
during the interview well if you watch

2573
01:25:38,790 --> 01:25:37,440
that interview you'll appreciate it

2574
01:25:40,470 --> 01:25:38,800
because i told

2575
01:25:42,070 --> 01:25:40,480
every time he made a really good point i

2576
01:25:43,590 --> 01:25:42,080
tried not to like consume the interview

2577
01:25:46,070 --> 01:25:43,600
because it's mike frick and render

2578
01:25:47,990 --> 01:25:46,080
but nonetheless i said hey man this is

2579
01:25:49,669 --> 01:25:48,000
the same thing i said as a christian

2580
01:25:51,189 --> 01:25:49,679
this is the same thing christianity does

2581
01:25:53,270 --> 01:25:51,199
so i i

2582
01:25:54,950 --> 01:25:53,280
always try to bring it back to my

2583
01:25:55,750 --> 01:25:54,960
experience and how it's relevant to the

2584
01:25:57,990 --> 01:25:55,760
cult

2585
01:25:59,189 --> 01:25:58,000
of christianity people christians hate

2586
01:26:01,990 --> 01:25:59,199
it when i say that they go

2587
01:26:03,350 --> 01:26:02,000
it's not a cult uh it isn't witness is a

2588
01:26:06,550 --> 01:26:03,360
cult uh this is a call

2589
01:26:10,149 --> 01:26:06,560
dude the whole thing is a cult

2590
01:26:13,510 --> 01:26:10,159
so i'm with you on that well

2591
01:26:16,070 --> 01:26:13,520
and to me that's the that's you know

2592
01:26:17,110 --> 01:26:16,080
bringing it back full circle that's why

2593
01:26:20,390 --> 01:26:17,120
joe atwell

2594
01:26:22,629 --> 01:26:20,400
is so important in this discussion

2595
01:26:23,910 --> 01:26:22,639
i think he kind of got josephus wrong a

2596
01:26:26,229 --> 01:26:23,920
little bit i think defeat

2597
01:26:27,430 --> 01:26:26,239
i think josephus is first playing a game

2598
01:26:32,149 --> 01:26:27,440
against the

2599
01:26:33,590 --> 01:26:32,159
then it evolves later into a psy up

2600
01:26:35,750 --> 01:26:33,600
against the christians

2601
01:26:37,189 --> 01:26:35,760
but big picture what he what he

2602
01:26:39,510 --> 01:26:37,199
understands is

2603
01:26:41,350 --> 01:26:39,520
social engineering is always in play and

2604
01:26:42,629 --> 01:26:41,360
if you go down that path what you wind

2605
01:26:44,790 --> 01:26:42,639
up with is this

2606
01:26:45,830 --> 01:26:44,800
i [\h__\h] love science science is the

2607
01:26:47,830 --> 01:26:45,840
answer to everything

2608
01:26:49,030 --> 01:26:47,840
i'm okay being a biological robot in a

2609
01:26:51,030 --> 01:26:49,040
meaningless universe

2610
01:26:53,510 --> 01:26:51,040
just tell me what to do because i don't

2611
01:26:54,790 --> 01:26:53,520
really i can't really think on my own i

2612
01:26:56,790 --> 01:26:54,800
have no willpower

2613
01:26:57,830 --> 01:26:56,800
i have no connection to anything greater

2614
01:27:00,229 --> 01:26:57,840
so

2615
01:27:01,510 --> 01:27:00,239
my life it it's you talk about fear you

2616
01:27:02,790 --> 01:27:01,520
talk about control

2617
01:27:05,030 --> 01:27:02,800
you caught talk about the deep

2618
01:27:06,790 --> 01:27:05,040
programming really behind that message

2619
01:27:08,870 --> 01:27:06,800
and it's it's so subtle that people

2620
01:27:11,990 --> 01:27:08,880
don't get it but it's a subtle way

2621
01:27:13,350 --> 01:27:12,000
of still going in that fear thing in

2622
01:27:15,510 --> 01:27:13,360
that control thing

2623
01:27:17,110 --> 01:27:15,520
because there's no other way around it i

2624
01:27:19,030 --> 01:27:17,120
don't feel that way about it

2625
01:27:20,950 --> 01:27:19,040
i don't feel that when i when i get to

2626
01:27:22,390 --> 01:27:20,960
this but then again my experience is

2627
01:27:23,350 --> 01:27:22,400
different than yours when it comes to

2628
01:27:25,510 --> 01:27:23,360
viewing that

2629
01:27:27,110 --> 01:27:25,520
i get what you're saying like ultimately

2630
01:27:28,790 --> 01:27:27,120
if you asked a naturalist

2631
01:27:31,110 --> 01:27:28,800
is there meaning to the universe do you

2632
01:27:31,669 --> 01:27:31,120
have meaning they're gonna tell you yeah

2633
01:27:33,510 --> 01:27:31,679
i have

2634
01:27:35,510 --> 01:27:33,520
meaning it's the meaning that i make

2635
01:27:37,510 --> 01:27:35,520
it's my it's from me but then again it

2636
01:27:39,350 --> 01:27:37,520
goes back to that philosophical question

2637
01:27:40,790 --> 01:27:39,360
do the trees make noise in the woods

2638
01:27:42,470 --> 01:27:40,800
well without without us

2639
01:27:43,990 --> 01:27:42,480
observing them there's no meaning apart

2640
01:27:45,590 --> 01:27:44,000
from our experience of them so

2641
01:27:45,990 --> 01:27:45,600
technically no there's no meaning until

2642
01:27:47,990 --> 01:27:46,000
you and

2643
01:27:49,030 --> 01:27:48,000
i actually experience the thing that

2644
01:27:50,390 --> 01:27:49,040
makes the meaning

2645
01:27:52,310 --> 01:27:50,400
it's kind of no but that's not that's

2646
01:27:52,950 --> 01:27:52,320
not science scientific materialism

2647
01:27:54,870 --> 01:27:52,960
insists

2648
01:27:56,550 --> 01:27:54,880
that the world is out there and that the

2649
01:28:00,070 --> 01:27:56,560
trees do make a sound

2650
01:28:01,590 --> 01:28:00,080
so right so it's kind of one way you do

2651
01:28:02,229 --> 01:28:01,600
have to kind of fall one way or another

2652
01:28:04,870 --> 01:28:02,239
on that

2653
01:28:05,830 --> 01:28:04,880
and again so if anyone wants to go there

2654
01:28:07,189 --> 01:28:05,840
all the science

2655
01:28:10,229 --> 01:28:07,199
all the really good science points

2656
01:28:13,510 --> 01:28:10,239
towards a post-materialistic

2657
01:28:14,310 --> 01:28:13,520
kind of explanation for that but yeah

2658
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:14,320
and i'm i'm

2659
01:28:18,470 --> 01:28:17,280
i'm still getting my feet wet so look i

2660
01:28:20,950 --> 01:28:18,480
appreciate it

2661
01:28:22,229 --> 01:28:20,960
yeah i can't thank you enough um for you

2662
01:28:24,790 --> 01:28:22,239
know inviting me and having this

2663
01:28:27,669 --> 01:28:24,800
interesting open-minded conversation

2664
01:28:28,149 --> 01:28:27,679
um i haven't looked into a lot of this

2665
01:28:29,990 --> 01:28:28,159
stuff

2666
01:28:31,910 --> 01:28:30,000
so it's something to investigate and

2667
01:28:33,350 --> 01:28:31,920
then see what i come out on the other

2668
01:28:36,550 --> 01:28:33,360
side with

2669
01:28:37,430 --> 01:28:36,560
fair enough man keep doing it you take

2670
01:28:40,149 --> 01:28:37,440
care

2671
01:28:42,229 --> 01:28:40,159
all right brother thanks again to derek

2672
01:28:43,990 --> 01:28:42,239
for joining me today on skeptico

2673
01:28:45,990 --> 01:28:44,000
the one question i t up from this

2674
01:28:49,189 --> 01:28:46,000
interview is do you think

2675
01:28:51,750 --> 01:28:49,199
derek is gonna do any of the research

2676
01:28:53,110 --> 01:28:51,760
any of the digging into stuff that we

2677
01:28:55,350 --> 01:28:53,120
teed up

2678
01:28:56,310 --> 01:28:55,360
i'll tell you from my experience the

2679
01:28:59,830 --> 01:28:56,320
answer is

2680
01:29:01,350 --> 01:28:59,840
almost certainly no and it's kind of

2681
01:29:03,590 --> 01:29:01,360
funny because it

2682
01:29:04,870 --> 01:29:03,600
you know whenever you get into these

2683
01:29:07,750 --> 01:29:04,880
discussions with

2684
01:29:09,189 --> 01:29:07,760
either atheists or christians a lot of

2685
01:29:10,310 --> 01:29:09,199
them are well-meaning i mean i think

2686
01:29:12,229 --> 01:29:10,320
they're they're genuine

2687
01:29:14,149 --> 01:29:12,239
and they say wow that's really

2688
01:29:17,590 --> 01:29:14,159
interesting i'll look

2689
01:29:18,950 --> 01:29:17,600
into that but as we all know most people

2690
01:29:21,590 --> 01:29:18,960
not the people who listen to this [\h__\h]

2691
01:29:22,950 --> 01:29:21,600
but most people rarely change their

2692
01:29:24,950 --> 01:29:22,960
beliefs

2693
01:29:25,990 --> 01:29:24,960
so what do you think are you banking on

2694
01:29:27,910 --> 01:29:26,000
derrick to come back

2695
01:29:29,510 --> 01:29:27,920
on or have me on and kind of further

2696
01:29:32,149 --> 01:29:29,520
this discussion with a

2697
01:29:34,070 --> 01:29:32,159
new enlightened or or even just more

2698
01:29:35,270 --> 01:29:34,080
well-informed point of view

2699
01:29:37,430 --> 01:29:35,280
what do you think think that's going to

2700
01:29:39,430 --> 01:29:37,440
happen let me know

2701
01:29:40,709 --> 01:29:39,440
jump on over to the skeptical forum drop

2702
01:29:43,590 --> 01:29:40,719
me an email

2703
01:29:44,629 --> 01:29:43,600
connect with me however until next time

2704
01:29:52,060 --> 01:29:44,639
take care

2705
01:30:00,220 --> 01:29:52,070
bye for now